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Scott Satterlee Method - Puzzle

Hi Guys,

So I‘ve used the Scott Satterlee method to identify three neighbouring charge weights, which yield an ES of 2fps:

43.00gn = 3102fps
43.20gn = 3100fps
43.40gn = 3102fps

When I subsequently load up 5 cartridges of each charge weight, none of the sets is below 20fps ES:

43.00gn = 32fps ES
43.20gn = 23fps ES
43.40gn = 27fps ES

And none of the sets yield single-digit SDs.

How is that possible?

If I’ve just managed to select the perfect three cartridges the first time around, I need to start buying more lottery tickets!

Cam.
 
I think you are confusing Extreme Spread (ES) with Standard Deviation (SD). Use the Excel function STDEV to find the standard deviation of your groups of five shots. If you do that, I think you will find that your first case of ES = 32 will yield an SD of about 8 fps. There is the single digit scenario you are looking for!
 
In your initial trial if you shot one per charge, and later you learn each charge has an associated es of 30, then there is your answer. The approach is in reverse order from a statistical perspective. FIRST knowing the variability (es = 30), THEN this can be used to determine how many shots are required for each charge weight to distinguish the minor differences you seek to find. Otherwise you are simply looking at noise, random variability, statistics 101.
 
If by “Satterlee method” you mean loading one round per charge weight and looking for flat spots in the velocity graph, that is pure utter horseshit and you are only ever going to see random noise, and the results won’t replicate. You may as well use a Ouija board to pick your charge weights. Scott Satterlee doesn’t teach that anymore, by the way.
 
After many years in the lab where my tasks were to try and manage statistically chaotic topics like friction, wear, fatigue, and LOS controls, I have seen many strange statistical events, both good and bad. Very early on, I started using Bayesian stats to protect myself from false positives and false negatives. When your sample sizes are very low, those things creep into your life just to keep you humble....

I wasn't directly responsible for internal ballistics, but since my work depended on theirs, it was in my interest to help keep things under control.

It is nice when one sweep for charge, and another for depth gives us a successful load, but that doesn't happen for most contexts. When it does, the usual context is a very high quality bbl, very mature loading discipline, and the hands of a master or high master pilot.

My guess is you are bitten by undersampling, but that is a guess from the bleachers.

If this is a brand new bbl, then give yourself a chance to learn what it wants before you draw any conclusions.

Try and work from a single contiguous batch of prepped brass, primers, bullets, and powder lots to keep those variables minimized. I have seen folks get confused when their components or brass prep caused changes they didn't know about between sessions.

Go back and see if the previous (good or bad) results repeat with and without a cleaning after you check all your fasteners and scope, etc.

Scott's method is good for some contexts, but not for all. Is this a match gun with a known background or a brand new unproven rig, or something in between?

If your bbl has a known pet load, go back and test with that too and see if that load is acting normal.

If you are in a new bbl, that isn't helpful yet but is something good to keep in the debugging toolbox for times when something acts out of family as you test new recipes.

Maybe give us a better description of the rig? Are we talking about a heavy match bbl or a sporter?

Is your bbl brand new? Did you have to break into any new lots on components between sessions? Did you change your brass prep between the two sessions? Change tools? If the answer to all of these is no, then you will have to tray a larger sample to get confidence in the results. If the answer to any of those is yes, then it may or may not be the cause, you will have to test again anyway so test those changes when you can to see if they are significant contributors.

I would double check the fasteners and scope the bore after a good cleaning. Starting a new bbl or new recipe means you may need a new baseline to see when the rig needs a cleaning.

Pay attention to your brass prep details and don't give up just because things didn't go as easy as we see on Youtube. Most of us have to burn some energy to fight headwinds in our sports, so the quicker we learn the faster we climb.
 
The Satterlee method is garbage. A sample size of 1 is statistically insignificant and indicative of nothing.

I used to use the "Satterlee Method", then at one point I decided to load up two identical ladders. Every time I did this, any so called "node" in one ladder was never repeated in another identical ladder.

I don't worry about "nodes" anymore. I've found that as long as I measure my powder accurately and consistently, attaining ~15 ES and low SD's is really hard not to do. I use an autotrickler with fx-120 scale btw.

For what it's worth, not even Scott Satterlee uses the "Satterlee method" anymore, from what I've heard.
 
Find your best load of the day on target, and make sure its repeatable. After you find one that groups well (at least 3 shots) and looks the same shape the next time you do it then you have a good steady load. After a couple of sessions of repeatability and youre bored, get out the chronograph and see what it tells you.
 
If by “Satterlee method” you mean loading one round per charge weight and looking for flat spots in the velocity graph, that is pure utter horseshit and you are only ever going to see random noise, and the results won’t replicate. You may as well use a Ouija board to pick your charge weights. Scott Satterlee doesn’t teach that anymore, by the way.
If it works in the real world....and not just on paper.....it works
 
If by “Satterlee method” you mean loading one round per charge weight and looking for flat spots in the velocity graph, that is pure utter horseshit and you are only ever going to see random noise, and the results won’t replicate. You may as well use a Ouija board to pick your charge weights. Scott Satterlee doesn’t teach that anymore, by the way.


Respectfully disagree. I've tested this dozens of times - I'll run the same ladder 3 times in a row (slow and controlled firing to control barrel heat) and you'll get the same flat spot in each string of fire. I see the same flat spots on a 500 yard target.

It works for me... But maybe I'm biased because I generally know what speed things should work (IE, in an FTR gun, making a 185 juggernaut go 2725-2750 will work in almost every 30 inch barrel) and the ladder just reinforces that for me, or helps me find the right charge for my lot of powder.
 
If by “Satterlee method” you mean loading one round per charge weight and looking for flat spots in the velocity graph, that is pure utter horseshit and you are only ever going to see random noise, and the results won’t replicate. You may as well use a Ouija board to pick your charge weights. Scott Satterlee doesn’t teach that anymore, by the way.
So we should listen to you? Scott's not teaching or MD anymore because he's back out doing shit none of us are qualified to do, understand? His method is his method. It works for him and he is a stud shooter and a nice guy. So just shut your mouth.
 
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So we should listen to you? Scott's not teaching or MD anymore because he's back out doing shit none of us are qualified to do, understand? His method is his method. It works for him and he is a stud shooter and a nice guy. So just shut your mouth.
Hunh? Someone brought up a question about the 'Saterlee' method. It's more than appropriate others provide input/assessment.
 
I only care what the target shows.

I don't believe in this statistical crap... I used to, but it only sent me chasing my tail on different days.

Let the target speak for itself on different days.
 

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