Schuetzen high wall 22 long

[OIF/OEF]

I recently inherited a Schuetzen high wall in 22 Long Rifle. The rifle is absolutely beautifully weird if that makes sense. As uncomfortable as the stock looks its actually very comfy.

Onto my question. I am not sure where to find the serial number on this thing. I have disassembled the rifle down to basic components and cannot find a single mark of any kind. I took it to an older gentleman in town that knew exactly what it was and offered me an AR15 in trade on the spot....I turned him down. I have looked over the rifle under magnification and still nothing. Any help or advice would be greatly welcomed.


Very Respectfully submitted for your review

 

[Travelor]

Serial numbers were not required at earlier times.

 

[SDWhirlwind]

My memory, especially short term sucks since my stroke. Have only owned 1 Hi-Wall but IIRC the SN was on either top or bottom tang? Think it were top? Heh, I know I might be all wet so please refrain from throwing rocks, OK!!!!! Actually whomever restocked it had shortened the tang according to a Hi-Wall 'expert' I knew at the time as there was a difference in design/build so he claimed receiver had incorrect # as is and last numeral was more than likely removed sometime between being made and me owning it. I eventually sold it to him

Edit to add....Wait, Wait,..now I remember....it was the lower tang...whew....glad that came back to me! lol Need to just keep my hands in my pockets instead of on a keyboard if I cannot remember or don't know But it is so hard to be silent whether vocally or smackin the keys!!!! :-\

 

[JRS]

The serial number should be on the tang, and I believe you have a Low Wall.

 

[Tom Baker]

The serial number should be on the lower tang. That said, since the lower tang is removable, many were changed because of the different triggers Winchester offered. Winchester also offered lower tangs that were not numbered as replacements and many schuetzen shooters changed from the standard trigger to the three set trigger types.

I've had a few of them, great old rifles of a bygone era, when real men wore hats and shot off their hind legs.

Tom Baker

 

[Keith Kilby]

JRS
Unless you've seen the rifle in question you can't ID it as a low wall based on the 22RF caliber. Many high walls were built in small cartridges like the 22RF. I personally have a very nice original take down high wall in 22 Short. Mr. Baker is correct in that in original form the serial number would have been on the removable lower tang. Earlier guns had an italic type marking and later went to non-italic. The numbers weren't that deep in early versions and after a refinish or two they could easily be polished off. The guns were so well made that virtually any tang from any rifle could be interchanged with another. There have been replacement lower tangs from various places over the decades as well which could also explain there being no number on the tang.

 

[patriot]

Pictures. We need pictures.

 

[Keith Kilby]

My 22 Short, original high wall

 

[Keith Kilby]

excuse the upside down

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Keith, that is one nice looking Hi Wall. The gentleman that I sold the one I had to has a Hi-Wall cased set with IIRC a 22 short and 22LR barrels. He claimed only a hand full of those existed? This was in the late 80's and he had 30 or more at that time. Don't talk to him anymore but he had a big collection of the SS Win and Colt SSA's. He put on the Sioux Falls, SD big gun show for many yrs. Always thought they were neat rifles, just never had the funds to get into them and none in these parts, at least not by the time I hit the ground!lol

 

[Eddie Harren]

I am absolutely amazed at some of our resident experts' ability to identify a man's action without seeing it. Then ultimately proven to be wrong!
We are truly blessed!

 

[JRS]

I am absolutely amazed at some of our resident experts' ability to identify a man's action without seeing it. Then ultimately proven to be wrong!
We are truly blessed!

I said "I believe", not that I am certain. Belief is an opinion, not a statement of fact. The pics provided are not of the rifle belonging to the OP. The 22 LR models I have seen were the Low Wall model. The OP has not responded as to whether it is in fact a High Wall, or, Low Wall. You can find the definition of the word "believe" in a dictionary, but as usual, you distort, take out of context and add your drivel. Your time would be better used, learning to read.
If someone placed a No 2 (Low Wall), or a No 3 (High Wall) in front of me, without looking at the markings, I couldn't realize the difference.

Rifles of the world - page 525, M-1885 Low Wall and High Wall:

"The first 22 rimfire guns were made in May 1886 built on the No 2, or Low Wall action designed to facilitate loading small caliber cartridges. Apart from a reduction in the height of metal alongside the breechblock, however, the No 2 was identical with the standard No 3 (or High Wall)".

Part of an email response:

"Winchester designed the low-wall for pistol sized centerfire cartridges, and rimfire cartridges. The high-wall was designed for full sized rifle cartridges up to the 577 Eley, though the 50-110 Express and 405 WCF were the most potent cartridges. The low-walls were made in three different frame dimensions, and were essentially a high-wall frame milled to low-wall dimensions, with slightly reduced tang dimensions. They were with rare exception made for the small shank barrel. The panel-sided high-wall (most common variety in the high-wall) and panel-sided low-wall frames are virtually indistinguishable to the untrained eye".

The email includes the differences in tang and barrel shank dimensions, and also being able to interchange the forend and butt stock between the High Wall and Low Wall frames.

One surefire way to ascertain what you have, other than running the serial number, is to measure, and get a close approximation of the diameter of the barrel shank.

 

[Eddie Harren]

Always right. Never wrong. What a wonderful way to live.

 

[Conaso]

The rifle appears to be a Mdl 1885 take-down version. I speculate the 22LR barrel is one of a set with the other barrel (maybe lost) being a center-fire barrel for this rifle, hence the reason for a High-wall in 22LR.

OIF/OEF - can you provide pictures of the entire rifle?

 

[patriot]

Conversions?

http://merzantiques.com/item/very-fine-winchester-deluxe-high-wall-schutzen-rifle
http://merzantiques.com/photo/winchester-model-1885-deluxe-schuetzen-rifle

 

[Keith Kilby]

I wasn't trying to make anyone look stupid in regards to ID of Winchester 1885 single shots....merely an attempt at educating. I have been involved with both High wall and low wall versions for over 30 years. I currently work for a small shop in Cody,WY making exact to original spec High Walls (Wyoming Armory). I have studied these things for a long time and have had the honor of not only restoring originals but building new ones.

Once you see a low wall you understand that only a glimpse is required to ID it vs a high wall. Yes there were different barrel shank dimensions, but that is true for both variants. The small shank barrels appear in high walls that had smaller than a #3 barrel...the contours do not correlate to modern numbers. A #3 barrel was as small as could be threaded to large shank dimensions and have a shoulder on the barrel (shank 0.930- 0.935" dia). #1 and #2 barrels had 0.830- 0.835" shanks.

High wall stocks will fit a low wall but the exterior dimensional differences mean that high wall wood put on low wall actions will have the wood quite a bit proud of the metal both on the sides as well as top and bottom. All pivots/geometry of moving parts is common between the two. The breech block mortise is the same in cross section as well.

Take downs such as the one in the picture I posted could be had with multiple barrels of different calibers. The catch is that if you went from centerfire to rimfire the breechblock and extractors had to be changed. If you had a centerfire rifle with the same parent rim as say a 30-30 you could swap barrels within that family in seconds...219 Zipper, 25-35, 30-30, 32-40, 32 Special, 38-55 etc. Changing between rim size and/or to rimfire meant pulling the internals and swapping parts.

For firearms history buffs...what was to become the 1885 Winchester single shot was John Browning's first patent...Oct. 1879.
If you're interested in good reference books for the Winchester single shot John Campbell did a 2 volume set. It describes virtually every variation and nuance and had wonderful photography. There are also charts showing caliber offering, barrel dimensions for each contour and all the different stock, trigger and other options available.

 

[patriot]

Any idea if the two links are to original High Walls, Low Walls, Conversions, or ???

Mark

 

[JRS]

I wasn't trying to make anyone look stupid in regards to ID of Winchester 1885 single shots....merely an attempt at educating. I have been involved with both High wall and low wall versions for over 30 years. I currently work for a small shop in Cody,WY making exact to original spec High Walls (Wyoming Armory). I have studied these things for a long time and have had the honor of not only restoring originals but building new ones.

Once you see a low wall you understand that only a glimpse is required to ID it vs a high wall. Yes there were different barrel shank dimensions, but that is true for both variants. The small shank barrels appear in high walls that had smaller than a #3 barrel...the contours do not correlate to modern numbers. A #3 barrel was as small as could be threaded to large shank dimensions and have a shoulder on the barrel (shank 0.930- 0.935" dia). #1 and #2 barrels had 0.830- 0.835" shanks.

High wall stocks will fit a low wall but the exterior dimensional differences mean that high wall wood put on low wall actions will have the wood quite a bit proud of the metal both on the sides as well as top and bottom. All pivots/geometry of moving parts is common between the two. The breech block mortise is the same in cross section as well.

Take downs such as the one in the picture I posted could be had with multiple barrels of different calibers. The catch is that if you went from centerfire to rimfire the breechblock and extractors had to be changed. If you had a centerfire rifle with the same parent rim as say a 30-30 you could swap barrels within that family in seconds...219 Zipper, 25-35, 30-30, 32-40, 32 Special, 38-55 etc. Changing between rim size and/or to rimfire meant pulling the internals and swapping parts.

For firearms history buffs...what was to become the 1885 Winchester single shot was John Browning's first patent...Oct. 1879.
If you're interested in good reference books for the Winchester single shot John Campbell did a 2 volume set. It describes virtually every variation and nuance and had wonderful photography. There are also charts showing caliber offering, barrel dimensions for each contour and all the different stock, trigger and other options available.

Your name sounded familiar, but it didn't immediately ring a bell ??? I own a very nice Damascus Bowie made by you 8)

 

[OIF/OEF]

JRS I cant post pics for some reason Sir may I text or email them to you Sir for preview and posting.


Very Respectfully

 

[OIF/OEF]

do you use the oven cleaner in the barrel with the barrel in the oven on self clean? I bet that would do something ya know some of that carbon would have to let go.