Safety & Long Loading

[Retired shooter]

Gentlemen

Looking for some information from you experienced ( RSGs) Real Smart Guys.

Have loaded mag length pistol and rifle rounds before, have the loading manuals, and always attempt to stay on the safe side of pressures. Now my first attempt at long loading rifle rounds to single feed , my question is, any information in any of the loading manuals in regards to powder charge ? Where does one find such information, I am limited to 52,000 lbs in a gas gun, I am getting older ( not old) and would like to shoot a few more years with my son, so therefore I ask questions.

When you dont know what you dont know, you get in trouble.

Thanks.

 

[PopCharlie]

Hodgdon's reloading data online shows you the pressure data for the cartridge/powder/ bullet combination. Most modern manuals do. You will want to figure out where the lands are in your barrel, so you know how long you can seat before you touch the lands. If you are happy with a particular powder charge, stay a few thousands off the lands and pressure won't be a problem.

PopCharlie

 

[ebb]

I am not one of the real smart guys but I do load into the lands with about all the cartridges I load for. I don't see huge pressure jumps when loading ammo that is touched, but maybe I do it different than you so this is the way I do it. Go to the reloading manual look at powders find one or two that give the highest velocity with the lowest pressure (this tells me that they are the most efficient for this cae and bullet weight) I pick a starting point about half way between the max and the minimum. I load three at the charge weight then load three more .3 grains higher charge weight. Continue till you get near book max. Start at the lowest charge weight and shoot one look at the primer and case for pressure signs. If OK shoot the other two. Shoot each group of three at a different aiming point watching each case for pressure signs. when you see a group that is smaller than the rest and it is lower charge weight than any showing pressure sighs you should have found your load. Nothing works that says just go 1.5 grains below max and you are there, you must try the load in your rifle, and all will be different.

 

[Retired shooter]

Gentlemen

Thank you for your replies.

I know how to figure COAL, and know how to measure the bullet to lands dim. I realize the load data is in the manuals, and have up to date manuals. With moving the bullet out of the case further, creating more case volume, I would think pressures would decrease. With what both of you have said is the max load for whatever cartridge, is the max load for whatever overall length .

Another question just popped, What is the rule of thumb in regards to length of bullet inside of case, what is minimal, and safe.

Thanks both of you.

 

[HTSmith]

Gentlemen

Looking for some information from you experienced ( RSGs) Real Smart Guys.

Have loaded mag length pistol and rifle rounds before, have the loading manuals, and always attempt to stay on the safe side of pressures. Now my first attempt at long loading rifle rounds to single feed , my question is, any information in any of the loading manuals in regards to powder charge ? Where does one find such information, I am limited to 52,000 lbs in a gas gun, I am getting older ( not old) and would like to shoot a few more years with my son, so therefore I ask questions.

When you dont know what you dont know, you get in trouble.

Thanks.

I'll leave specific advice to those more smarter than me. One thing I can pass along from personal experience is to be careful not to pull a loaded round out of the chamber and leave the bullet stuck in the lands. It will make a huge mess that is hard to clean up.

 

[K22]

I'm not one of the smart guys either, just an old fart with about 50+ years' experience who has made a lot of the mistakes already and learned from them, hopefully to save others from making the same mistakes.

First consideration is always safety. Stay with professional published data sources, i.e., Hornady, Sierra, Nosler, etc. and work up your loads. Learn to read pressure signs.

Second, I am a recreational and precision varmint / predator hunter and I have never loaded rounds closer than .010" to the lands and in most cases at least .020" off the lands. I've never found it necessary to load touching or jamming into the lands obtain high quality accurate loads.

For example, one of my Remington Model 7's with a Douglas Match Barrel has a maximum COAL (base to ogive) of 2.300". The most accurate load I tested out of this lightweight sporter averages about 1/2 moa with a COAL of 2.260". That .040" off the lands.

Several years ago, Sierra published an article about seating depth stating that in their testing, some rifles preferred a seating depth well off the lands. If you own old vintage Remington's, you have no choice since they have long throats and the ones, I've owned are capable of at least 1/2 moa precision.

Two other good reasons to load off the lands is for safety and functionality. Bullet ogives can vary a few thousands so what you may think is a "touch" is actually a "jam" which can raise pressure and result in a stuck bullet in the lands which is a real pain in the field. I know, many target shooter will advocate jamming the bullets into the lands but these guys are usually highly skilled reloaders and experienced shooters. In my opinion, there is no reason for recreational shooters and hunters to do this to obtain serviceable accuracy.

One other observation I can share is that extreme COAL's (less than one bullet diameter minus the boattail portion seated in the case) can sometimes increase run out and change the velocity of the load and sometimes the accuracy node.

 

[Retired shooter]

Thank you

I look at as not a mistake, just another way that didnt work. Personally I dont like the idea of jamming into the lands, I will always have some cushion area, for safety. I know the mag fed , or auto loaders have considerable jump before reaching the lands.

Have a great day.!

 

[Bill K]

If I read you question correctly. You are more limited to long loading, as you call it, by the magazine in your gas gun, unless you load single shot, then you can seat that bullet further out and even touch your lands, but you still want that bolt to fully close and lock.

 

[Retired shooter]

Hello Mr Bill
Yes sir I am familiar with being restricted to mag length, however this time I will use a Bob sled type mag, and single feed the cartridge. Dont know what others would call the reloading process, that is what I would call long loading.

Thank you Sir, have a great day.

 

[ebb]

There is no such thing as max load.

 

[Retired shooter]

Ebb

I would counter that statement with this one.

When the weapon of choice that you loaded for EXPLODES then you found the MAX load.

Hopefully no one gets hurt. Weapons can be replaced, I am tired of surgeries , and not very more replaceable parts..

Have a great day.

 

[Retired shooter]

Gentlemen
The conclusion I have came away with after this meeting of the minds is this. When using a Bob sled type mag in a semi auto loader to single feed a cartridge into the chamber ( because the bullet) , during the reloading process was seated longer than the mag would allow, in an attempt to find the sweet spot distance to the lands ( also known as Jumpin & Jammin). Maximum SAFE powder charge for whatever cartridge is what is listed in the reloading manual. ( As per that powder companies attorney at that time of publication).

Max powder charge is max charge, regardless of the distance in relation to the bullet ogive and the rifle lands.
To me it would seem logical that a cartridge with the bullet seated farther out of the case , should have a lower pressure, compared to a cartridge with a compressed charge.

My other conclusion is Dont overthink it. KISS

Thanks guys.
Have a great day

 

[ebb]

You are right it never occurred to ne that people might use my statement as an excuse to over load. A high school buddy that has since passed due to cancer learned to reload at my bench. Next range session he said something seems wrong and i looked at his empty cases and he had about 15 and all were over loaded and had flat primers. He gets all in huff and tells me that they are loaded to the book. So i disassemble and the are all loaded to the book on length, right primer, right powder, and charge weight is to the book max. Without even an attempt to start lower and work to max he loaded all of them to the max and never looked at a SINGLE PRIMER. I am not sure how to word it but I will try. There is no such thing as a published max, ever rifle is different and the loading process must start well below any published max and worked up ward till pressure signs are seen. Then the load must be reduced to a safe charge weight below observed pressure signs. My friend David work for Caterpillar and should have suspected stacking tolerances but proceeded to unsafe levels with out a second thought because a book had a listed maximum.

 

[Retired shooter]

Visiting with a good friend from back in the racing days, lives in Texas. I found out he is now into reloading, and shooting.

Seems he has to purchase another AR type weapon. He found out the hard way two powder charges in one case equals blown up weapon. Thankfully minor injuries, he was also out shooting by himself, no one to help him incase of severe injuries. Needless to say he has changed his loading process.

Have a great day Guys.

 

[Walt Krafft]

I assume you are talking about 223 in an AR. There is nothing wrong with shooting mag length 77 SMK all the way to 600 yards. Stepping up to the 80 grain bullets will gain you a little, not a lot, in windage. For nearly 30 years my load is 24.3 Varget, stick a bullet on it, any bullet. Mag length for 77s and lighter, some where arount 2.5 for 80s depending on your chamber. There are lots of known good loads using other powders too.

 

[Walt Krafft]

I shoot the 77s at 200 and 300 with thrown charges. I weigh charges for my 600 yard ammo and switching to the 80 helps id them.

 

[Retired shooter]

I realize guys my original post and question was generic as stated, and can be used across a wide variety of cartridges. While so far I have shot and reloaded considerable number of 223 rounds, staying within mag length, I did not want this to go off on another rabbit hole, ( close to Easter time humor)

I was in search of maximum safe powder charges (pressure issues) when loading a bullet out past standard mag length. Use of a Bob sled to single feed a semi auto weapon.

I realize I was trying to overthink, or over analyze the situation. Max powder charges are max charges regardless of how far out of the case the bullet is seated. As I said in above thread with the bullet out of the case further I would think the pressure issue would be less.

My specific caliber I am working with is the 6 ARC and attempting ELR type shooting using the longer heavier bullets, and wondering about any benefit to loading past allowable magazine limits.

Did not mean to get anyone off on a different topic.

Everyone have a great Easter Weekend.

 

[divingin]

He found out the hard way two powder charges in one case equals blown up weapon.

I haven't seen too many rifle loads where it's even possible to double charge the case. Most run at > 80% case capacity, so a double charge won't fit. Maybe some of the reduced recoil special use recipes, but not a standard plinking/target/hunting load.

Pistol is a different story. On my ISSF 32SWL loads, I can probably fit 5 charges in a case. That would be what they call "not good".

 

[Retired shooter]

For whatever reason he blew up a AR15, that was his story, I just repeated it. Just dont want anyone getting hurt, no matter what kind or type of mistake gets made.

 

[D-4297]

Your assumption that loading longer than Mag length will reduce detonation pressure is a correct one , and loading into the Lands will cause a somewhat "Higher" spike in the pressure gradient . As long as the "spike" is controlled , within reasonable limits , there is little to no issue regarding safety . Most BR Shooters are literally Masters at loading for maximum control , of both their velocities , and the "spike" effect of their loads , keeping it within safe parameters .
The advantage of "Long Loading" is to be able to put more powder in the case , to increase velocity of the round , while not increasing the "Spike" pressure beyond "Safe" limits . Many TR Shooters tend to "Load Long" , while having their bullet seated anywhere from .005 to a average of .020 of Touch of the Leade in the chamber .Or the point where the bullet makes contact with the beginning of the actual barrel .

As far as the amount of Bearing surface seated inside the neck , that gets established by the seating depth of the bullet length , and the amount of clearance decided on by the distance from "Touch" , where the bullet touches the Leade , or beginning of the barrel .

All of this is a combination of Science , Common Sense, and VooDoo , combined . As always ; when it comes to reloading for any rifle . It is always highly advisable that new reloaders find a Mentor , at your local Range or Club and follow their advice , as you learn . It's never what you CAN DO , that is dangerous , so much as what you should never do . And that is never really something people just aren't aware of .