Runout Questions

[Phil3]

I am brand new to reloading, and while playing with my new reloading equipment, had a couple questions.

How does one determine what is driving neck runout. I presume it is neck wall thickness variation, neck not concentric with case body, or both. How do you determine which?

Any idea why position of the decapping pin and sizing button affect runout? Maybe I am pinching the case between the die interior and sizing button, since I moved the button up as high as possible to maintain best case support in the die. Runout was .005". I lowered the decapping rod/button so decapping pin is flush with bottom of die (I am using a separate decapping die), and that gave runout on two cases of .001- .0015" (Sinclairs runout tool). Where on the neck should I be measuring?

When pulling the ball through the 223 Remington neck (Winchester brass), the effort is pretty firm with the Forster C-Ax press, even with the Redding FL die, floating carbide button, and Imprerial inside the case neck. There is a also a graunching sound, like a heavy low squeak. I thought maybe I was pinching the neck between my elevated sizing button and the die interior, but adjusting the decapping pin and button so pin is flush with bottom of die does not change the sound. the necks and button are clean. ???

I will move to more specialized dies later on, but I am brand new, using an AR15 for now, and want to learn proper techniques before moving to a bolt 6mmBR.

Thanks.

- Phil

 

[Kenny474]

First, you want the decapping pin sticking out the bottom a bit. You want the neck to be out of the neck sizing portion of the die before it hits the button. You really need to set your dies up properly for them to work properly. Even if you are depriming separately, you still need to set the button in the same place.
Read the instructions that came with the dies, that is a huge step in the right direction. You want the sizing ball about as low as possible without contacting the base of the case.

Also, try lubing the contact points on the press as well.

From the Redding site: Resistance to pulling your cases over the size button can indicate problems. A "squawk" says "shame on you", you forgot to brush the residue out of the necks. A hard drag can indicate that the top of the size button is not smooth. Don't be afraid to polish the top radius with #600 wet paper, but don't reduce the outside diameter or you can create an excessive bullet fit. Carbide size buttons are now an option also; they have a lower coeffecient of friction.

Run-out is caused by many things, variations in neck thickness, improperly set-up dies, chamber that isn't concentric, too much neck tension when seating bullets, not using quality brass.
With the type of dies you are using any variation in neck thickness will show up as run-out on the neck, as the button will push the brass outward leaving a concentric hole and all the variation on the outside. You can improve your brass by neck turning so as to eliminate any variation in thickness. Then you will get a better reading.

The instructions with the Sinclair tool will have instructions on how to use it and where to measure, or you could call them.

You really need to read a good manual that will cover a lot of the questions you have. If you don't have a manual, you need to buy one. They are your best friend while loading and will answer many questions you may have.

One bit of advice; you are new to this, don't try and improve things until you completely understand how they work and why. Do everything by the book and read the instructions that come with EVERY piece of equipment from start to end. Push the limit's of nothing and check everything twice. One mistake can cost you your life or change it drastically, or even hurt or kill a bystander.
I don't say this to be an ass, but so you understand that the equipment and techniques used today are the result of years of trial and error and a lot of money in development. It's not likely you will improve anything when you are just getting started. Go with what's proven and be safe. Good luck.

 

[Phil3]

The Redding full length sizing die I got had no instructions. I will ask Redding for these. Why would you want the resizing ball as LOW as possible? That means the case will be a good ways out of the die before the ball engages the neck. Maybe no harm, but what benefit?

I have to correct one thing I wrote. The squawk is NOT from the ball sliding through the neck. It is when the die lifts maybe 1/4"' away from the case, when withdrawing the case. It does this even without the decapping assembly in the die! The case is well lubed with Imperial wax. What is squawking? You can feel the stickiness through the press handle. The carbide button I have slides pretty easily through the neck.

The Sinclair instructions aren't real specific on where to measure on the neck...I just put the pointer at the midway point, same as the photo in the instructions.

I have read immense amounts of material on reloading. I am well aware of all that you have said. Right now, I am not making any live ammo, in an effort to familiarize myself with techniques first, and be 100% confident of ammo I produce to be safe.

- Phil

 

[jo191145]

Phil
First off I do not measure concentricity. Never felt the need but I'm a minority on that.
I'll assume this is fireformed brass not fresh out of the bag.

We need to take in consideration all the different parts your using to size brass.
Press, die, shellholder, brass etc. All these parts are manufactured with fairly liberal tolerances as far as a machinist is concerned. (not one of those either )
Put em all together screwed down tight and they can exhibit a good amount of misalignment.

The die itself is the biggest area of concern. Look at your decapper pin from the bottom. Is it centered in the die? loosen the expander assembly lock ring and turn the assembly 1/4 turn and try again. Off center or centered?
If your seeing its off center I would'nt be surprised.
Easiest fix is doing away with the expander ball and using the correct bushing.

If you want to keep the expander ball place a rubber O ring under the expander rod lock nut (top of die)
This essentially allows the expander to minimally free float instead of being a steel to steel lock up. The expander ball is now free to self center on the brass instead of trying to force it through off centered.
I do this to any die I have that utilizes an expander ball. Very few of those left in my reloading practises.
This may explain why you saw an improvement with the ball lowered. the assembly lengthened allowed it to flex towards center as oppossed to a short and stiffer setup.


I can't imagine what would cause a squawk besides the expander ball but I would definately hunt it down and fix it.

 

[BoydAllen]

If you are using a one piece die that does not take neck bushings, where the part of the die that sizes the neck is all one piece with the rest of the die, the source of your runout is the pull on the neck when the expander ball is pulled through it causing the shoulder of the case to yield slightly more on one side than the other, which cocks the neck at a slight angle. In order to make sure that their dies will size all cases so that they will hold a bullet, manufacturers generally build their one piece dies with neck inside diameters that are small enough that the expander (generally the word bushing refers to something else) creates enough pull to make the necks crooked. This is why many reloaders use dies that have interchangeable neck bushings, that are available in sizes the vary by .001". By avoiding having to expand a turned neck by using the bushing that gives the desired neck tension, or by choosing a bushing size that only has the expander opening up the neck by .001 or .002, the pull of the expander ball is either eliminated or reduced to the point that it is no longer a problem. Another solution is to send the die back and have the neck honed out to a slightly larger diameter. Use of a carbide expander ball will not solve the problem, although you can reduce it by lubricating the inside of the necks, letting the decapping assembly float, by using an O ring, and by pulling the expander through the neck more slowly. When you are measuring case runout, your readings should be from as near the end of the case neck as possible, while avoiding false readings caused by any burrs caused by trimming. Typically runout readings will increase, on a given case, as you move from near the shoulder to the mouth of the case.

 

[Kenny474]

I only stated what I did because I had rifle chunks fly by my face last year, not my rifle by the way, nor was I shooting the rifle. After nearly having having my face rearranged, I like to let people know this stuff happens. No offense to you was meant. Just want you to be careful so you don't end up like that guy.

Funny thing though, he gave me a huge box of 12ga shells a few weeks prior and never told me they were reloads. I didn't know until that day it was because his shotgun blew up as well from his reloads. Yeah, they have been broken down for hulls and shot.

 

[Phil3]

Your intent is understood...I have asked a lot of questions of people and had many preach the safety aspect to me, which I really do fully understand. My apology for my terse response. I should say having a neighboring gun blow up is worrisome...I have no idea what they are shooting or how safe it is, and being as close as 6 feet away at the range definitely puts my in harms away, if something goes wrong.

I hope people here will be patient with my questions...as naive as they may be. I am after top accuracy, but also safety as well, which may result in some seemingly basic questions.

- Phil

 

[Shynloco]

Phil,
Kenny474 sums things up pretty well. Some of the things he mentions also have a direct effect on what weapon you are shooting and what your purpose is with that weapon. Certainly neck concentricity is determined by many things, but I wouldn't be turning necks in an AR15 while I'd never shoot a casing in my 6mmbr that has not been turned. You'll quickly learn that the quality (cost) of brass also helps determine how much variance you might have in the necks of your casings. Even after cutting my necks using Lapua brass for all my rifles, I use a Wilson Seating die to seat my bullets simply because I get a variance of less than .01 whereas the variance increases as high as .04 when I use my Redding Seater Die. And make no mistake, Redding Dies are amongst the best available. As far as I'm concerned, the bottom line on concentricty is knowing what you are trying to accomplish and reading or asking knowledegable folks how to get there. So I suggest you read, read, read and ask questions. Jump in on reloading and you'll learn from the mistakes you make. We all did it and learned a great deal from it. Let that 6mmbr sit for a while because loading at that level goes much deeper and you first need to learn that basics. Remember one thing, SAFETY comes first and never, ever shorcut anything. If you aren't sure, ASK rather than take a chance on a "Hot Load" and doing damage to your weapon. Reloading can be fun and very rewarding, but sometimes dangerous under the wrong conditions. But most of all, have fun and learn. I haven't been reloading all that long though I've been shootin all sorts of weapons for over 50 years. Even now when I go to the range, I learn something new even if not about any of my weapons that I reload for.
Lastly, there is no such thing as a stupid question....only that one that wasn't ask when you didn't know the answer. Also remember, what works in your weapon, may not work in mine and visa versa. Each weapon is unique and has it's own likes and dislikes. Basic principles are often the same, but the individual step in relaoding might vary slightly with YOUR WEAPON when it comes to bullets, casings, primers and the powder you use. Best of luck and have a great time learning to reload.

 

[Phil3]

Thank you for the time to compose your response, and the content.

The weapon and intended use are important, and I had not stated that here. I want top accuracy, which begs the question, "why an AR15". Reasons are too many to go into here, but I do wish to achieve the best accuracy that kind of gun can achieve. I know a bolt gun is superior in accuracy and will reload for one of those later.

I asked about concentricity because regardless of whether it makes much difference in an AR15, I like the idea of making ammunition as consistent as possible. Perfectionist I guess. At this juncture in my reloading experience, it is apparent I should just concentrate on putting together a safe load, gain experience with that, and then try to add in the fancier preparation later. This approach also permits me to see what affects what (i.e., runout affect accuracy, or not, in an AR15).

I have read an immense amount of reloading material, everything from Glen Zediker's book Handloading for Competition, to loading manuals, information here, and many other places. My eyes hurt!

I am safety aware. I am not a risk taker in this kind of thing. 50,000 psi commands a lot of respect from me.

I am aware that every gun has its own likes and dislikes. Why is it that my AR15 can shoot repeated .6" 5 shot groups off a bipod using cheap ammo, but not as well using supposedly superior BlackHills stuff. Don't know, but it does. I know AR15s can not handle the loads a bolt gun can, and will be referring to the Sierra AR15 section for guidance, along with cross references on other guides. I have very good equipment, so am good there.

I will say one thing. It would be a HUGE help to any newbie to have a personal mentor. I find this to be so important (as a person who could have used it, and probably still could), I wish to do this myself for others new to reloading, after I have lots of experience.

- Phil

 

[Kenny474]

Phil, Maybe try finding a match in your area and see where some of the other competitors are from. Maybe see if you can meet someone at the range a few times a month and learn from him. Most guys in this sport are very helpful and will go out of their way to get new shooters involved. I have helped a few guys from the range (Not the exploding gun guy! He needs more help than I can give!) learn to reload, and even sold them some of my old equipment to help get them started.

Just going to the range with an experienced accuracy shooter can be a huge help. I was lucky enough to meet an older guy at the range when I was first starting to get into loading and accuracy 10 years ago and ended up learning how to reload from him and hunted with him for many years. He was very knowledgeable and was a huge help to me. We have become good friends as well even though he is almost 50 years older than I. I used to meet him and another of his friends at the range every Saturday, and just watching them shoot and getting pointers helped a lot.

 

[Shynloco]

Good Morning Phil,

I'm impressed by your well worded response. Glad to see even a newer loader is chasing perfection, something most of us strive for which is the basic reason we reload.
And you (in a sense) gave an example of what I was talking about when I said each weapon likes it own particular combination in a load. You said you don't understand why "cheap" ammo works better than more expensive ammo in your AR. The answer is really quite simple...it likes that load alot! Now since you are a "perfectionist" (as am I) don't settle for what that "cheap" ammo shoots. If need be, take a cartridge apart and find out what weight of bullet and powder are that are used. You probably won't be able to tell exactly which powder is being used, but thats where the challenge begins...start testing that load with various powders. Check and see what other loaders use for that make/caliber of AR and use that info as a starting point. DO not assume that other loaders powder type and load will give you the results you seek. But knowing what powders they use might give you a hint in which direction to go. For instance, years ago, my partner loaded for both of us because I didn't have the time nor the inkling to learn to load. But since I retired, it gave me time to play around with loads and learn how to do it. Interestingly enough, my partner used to load IMR 4895 in both our Ruger M77V .308's. When I started playing around with his load, I got a hair to try RE15 which wasn't available back in the day. Suddenly I found that a .5 difference in RE 15 made my groups even tighter (inside 1/2" at 100 yds). Then a couple of weeks ago I tried using Varget instead of RE15, but stayed with the 42 gr load. Guess what...my groups tightened up even more to .290 in three shot groups at 100 yds. Call it luck, call it smarts, call it anything you want...I don't care...IT WORKS! My message is simple, never be satisfied even though your groups tighten up. Look for that elusive 5 shot one holer which is my goal. And be sure to DOCUMENT each load so you can go back to what you had if things start going south on a particular load. This stuff is so rewarding even if you weapon likes the cheap stuff over the most expensive stuff around. Besides, it'll save you $$$$ to spend on the more pesky loads that might drive you nuts sometimes. Been there...done that! And chime in whenever you find success in a load so others, novice or expert, can benefit from your find. Guys who've been doing this for a while may have gained tons of experience and knowledge, but they don't know it all. Thats another thing I find rewarding, is to learn something new each day and that way the day hasn't been a waste of time. Good luck my friend and enjoy!

Alex

 

[Phil3]

Thank you for your informative guidance.

I am the perfectionist. I won't settle for the decent performance of the cheap ammo. I was shocked it shot as well as it did given the big variations on case head to ogive measurement. Maybe my AR is insensitive to this. My initial reaction was I can make more consistent ammunition and find myself excited about doing so, and seeing what happens. I will take apart a few rounds of the cheap ammo and reverse engineer it to at least understand bullet weight, type, grains of powder, type, bullet distance from lands, etc.

I have identified, through considerable research, what powders, primers, bullets, and cases work well with the AR. I have some of all of these, enough to provide endless combinations and experimentation. Record keeping will be perhaps over the top, but I am meticulous this way. I will probably build a relational database to record everything and then run queries to learn what worked, what did not, when, under what conditions, etc. Through this, I can detect trends, failures, successes, etc., very quickly. It is one thing to have a ton of recorded info, but distilling it down into something measurable and concrete is something else. I do recognize there may be results that simply defy any pattern or logic, as exasperating as that may be for me.

I think the one thing that does concern me is that while making ONE change, it is impossible to rule out the impact of other constants that DO change, however slightly. For instance, wind may be behaving differently down range and you may not even see it. The outside temperature is much hotter than last time a test was conducted.

I posted back in November 2009 about the load development process, and will refer back to that, as I do need to have a systematic way of testing and evaluating. I do know that one may wish to simply try a different powder, bullet, seating depth, etc. to see what happens, but would like to do so in some standard logical sequence.

I will most certainly post what my results are.

- Phil

 

[Shynloco]

Phil,
Boy I'd say you certainly have a game plan that exceeds most reloaders.

And apparently you have identified the one VARIABLE that drives many of us nuts - W I N D! Speaking strictly for myself, that is one area that I'm very weak in but have watched some Benchrest guys and how they counter that issue for a good score. Some use flags, some have the hand held devices to measure wind force, etc. For me and since I shoot strictly for fun, the one thing I have learned is the lighter the bullet, the more effect the wind can have on it. Load is also a factor, but not nearly as much as the force of the wind and how much the bullet has to "cut" through it. It's just another challenge we face in reloading, but its the challenge we enjoy taking on just to beat it and say we could do it.

Alex