Runout questions....Long story.

[Hapnin]

I had a rifle put together last year (AR) chambered in a somewhat "wildcat" round. I got a set of dies from the cartridge designer and immediately had trouble with the FL die sizing the neck too much and being very hard to get the button pulled back through. I contacted them and they sent me another very quickly. The new die works much better with the neck tension, in my opinion, a little on the light side (bout .0025). I have the Sinclair concentricity gauge and the fired case has at most .0015 runout at the neck. Average is right at .001. After running through the FL die..I get as much as .008. I've ran the same measurements on both .223 and .243 brass both before and after FL sizing and they were both at minimum runout.

My question is..would it be possible for me to have a custom die made by another outfit even though this design is created by someone else without stepping on any toes? Thanks for any help or opinions.

 

[TheSnake]

I think you can do whatever you want for yourself without a problem. Now if you have someone else make them so you can sell them, that could be a problem.

 

[ronemus]

Talk to Lonnie Hummel at Hornady - he's the contact for the custom die shop, and will make whatever you need at a very reasonable price. Turnaround depends on just what you need, and can range from one to several weeks. If you have a reamer print for your chamber and/or a few fired cases, he'll make just what you need. The custom Hornady dies are very good (as are their production dies) so you should have no runout issues. You might consider a bushing die so you can get exactly the neck tension you want as the brass work hardens or you get a new lot/brand.

 

[blawton]

Do you have a print on the chamber? If you do then alot of custom die makers can do them for you like CH4D. But i cant say about the legal end of it. What chambering are you talking about here?

 

[Hapnin]

Thanks for all the info. Think I'll look around for a custom job. My chambering is just a necked down version of another but has the originators initials after it. Not sure that it's considered a true custom or wildcat, I know there are a lot of Ackleys out there. Like I said I just don't want to step on any toes.
As an update..the FL die I have is a Redding standard with the floating carbide button installed. I pulled the button and stem out and resized a couple cases. They came out with no runout. So how do I keep the button from inducing runout? The button is real loose on the stem. I know it's supposed to float but it seems a bit much. I also have the regular expander and it's worse at goofing things up. Would it possibly help to polish up the button to make it smaller. This should reduce some of the runout and gain me some neck tension at the same time.

 

[holstil]

Have you tried an O ring yet? It's been my experience that the die maker is not the reason for my runout issues but more of the sizing process. I use a fair amount of sizing wax and no more problems. It appears that the more tension I've tried to put on, the more runout potential.
Maybe loose the button?
Jim

 

[blawton]

Hapnin sorry i should have mentioned that as well. I pull all of the resizing balls out of all of my dies. I never used them except on maybe a 223 or small varmit rounds. There is no use for them. What i use just in case i have to much bullet tension is a forester case trimmer with a inside neck reamer. I get no runout issues...

 

[Hapnin]

I'll have to measure my brass that I sized without the stem/button and see what kinda tension I'll have. I think it'll be too tight. I stopped by the parts store this afternoon to pick up some o-rings to try under the stem where it seats at the top of the die. Thought it might let the stem float a little and center on the neck.

Thanks again guys...I'll keep you all posted.

 

[blawton]

In the case of it being to tight a inside neck reamer on your case trimmer would be a easy fix.

 

[Hapnin]

Alright I went down and sized a couple cases without the button and the runout was 0.000. The od of the neck was .007 less than my loaded round and about .0045- .005 less than the sized brass using the button ( which is hard to measure since it's egg shaped). So I'm gonna load some rounds without the button and try em. Do you think that .007 is too much tension for an auto? Stay tuned.

 

[Mikem]

If your not gitting any runout with the die and no button, I dont think the problem is in the die body. Its most likely your brass.
All Redding dies I have seen dont have a ball, rather more like a piston, and I dont care for that design, to me it causes to much friction or drag, I use Forester for most of my dies, but do have and like other Redding dies and tools.
Read the neck wall thickness after sizing (less the ball), and see if the low side of the runout, is also the thick side of the neck wall.

 

[Hapnin]

The carbide button in this die is more like a ball. The flat on it is probably 1/32" to 1/16". All of my dies are Forster including the seater for this round. The fl for this round is the only Redding die I own simply because that is who the designer "comissioned" to make the dies for him. I have no idea why one would have Redding make the sizer and then supply a Forster ultra seater but that's how it is right now.
Will try to measure neck wall thickness on the high and low sides.

Thanks a lot.

 

[holstil]

Lapua brass
bushing die - size of your choice
O ring goes between the die body nut and the press
wilson seater
go shooting
Jim

 

[Mikem]

Hapnin, I dont think there's anything major wrong with Redding, and they may not all be the same, but the one sizing die of Redding's I have, has a long cylinder for a ball (long = 3/8"). I do like the way they finish off the surface, and there micrometer type seater is nice.
So im not knocking Redding at all, they make good stuff.

I do think most sizing does introduce some neck runout, but I'm not sure its not a reaction of the brass. Like maybe the thicker side offer more resistance to being pulled in to a smaller diameter.
And there's some evidence that the thick side on the neck, can extend all the way down the inside to the case head.

This problem is more common than some people are willing to admit. And when someone posts numbers of runout, I always wonder where there taking there reading, if its close to the shoulder thats one thing, but by the case mouth it will be greater.

I like to test mine after the bullet is seated, and take the reading off the bullet, out close to the meplet, this is where you will get the largest numbers. Then I mark the low side of the neck,(permanent marker pin), then slide an empty case over the bullet and give it a little push, and often they will move back in line. I can usually get them back close to .001 or .002, out, at the bullet tip.

That mark you put on the neck, will stay at lest until the next reloading, so the next time you check its runout, and again mark the low side, see if the new mark isn't in the same place as the first mark.
If so it would indicate the problem is in the brass, not the die. There can be no other explanation.
I just dont know what to do about it, short of turning the necks, or live with it.

 

[toodogs]

There is this tool to correct runout http://www.accurateshooter.com/forum/index.php/topic,3743715.0.html

Pat

 

[blawton]

Yes .007 is a lot but its not outrageous. I dont like to see any more then .004 or .005. If you can get it down to that you may not have so many problems with runout either while using the ball.

 

[Mikem]

Something else to try, is separate all cases with over .003 runout taken in the center of the neck, so you end up with two batches, then load them the same, and see if one batch shoots better than the other.
Then let us know. If all of the flyer's come from the .003+ batch, will all learn something.

 

[Hapnin]

Lapua brass
bushing die - size of your choice
O ring goes between the die body nut and the press
wilson seater
go shooting

That trick with the o-ring won't work with the Forster press which is what I have. Other than that..I would agree whole heartedly.

Mikem..I not trying to knock anyone either and I wasn't thinking you were either. I think it's more a Chevy, Ford thing.
I checked my high runout brass this morn and the low side is also the thickest. Which would mean the thinnest side is showing the least resistance to the expander thus expanding more....I think. Now I'm thinking about going the way of Notaguru. Size without the ball and ream or expand and neck turn. I think the reaming would be a lot less time consuming.
Let me know y'alls opinions. They are very much appreciated.

 

[ronemus]

You need a larger bushing; necks 0.002" smaller than loaded diameter are about optimum. Your necks are being reduced excessively in diameter, then opened up several thousandths by the expander. This will induce runout, and overworks the brass (they'll die from neck splits after a few loadings). A bushing 0.005" larger than you're using would be ideal, and you should probably also get one 0.004" larger to use when the brass gets harder after several loadings.

Sizing necks 0.0015-0.002" under loaded diameter will give you maximum bullet pull (desirable). Sizing them smaller actually reduces bullet pull (undesirable) and increases seating force because you're using the bullet as an expander (really bad - usually causes bullet deformation due to excessive seating force). There was an article in Precision Shooting about a year ago detailing all of this.

 

[Hapnin]

Do you think .002" is enough tension for an auto? I figured that to be a little on the light side.
The die I'm currently using is not a bushing die it was made for this cartridge and I'd have to have a bushing die custom made. Which..may be my best bet. I'm just trying to find the best course of action.

Thanks for the input.