Runout Gauge comparison - Sinclair Verses H & H

[NZVarminter]

Bit of basckground first: I've had a Sinclair runout gauge for 12 months now and clock and separate all my reloads by runaout. I'm loading 204, 260 and 7mm08 and using Redding S type sizing and competition seater.

I am generally getting around 20% 1 tho or less, 60% 1-4 tho and 20% 4-6 tho. Maybe 1 or 2 per 50 would be over 6 tho.

I've tried everything to reduce my runout, but have concluded I'm not going to remove it, so have recently bought one of the H & H runout gauges that allows you to "correct" the runout.

Well, first thing I did when it arrived was to clock some ammo I had already clocked with my Sinclair gauge....absolutly no correlation. 1 tho readings the Sinclair gave 3,4,5 on the HH gauge. 1 tho on the HH gave me 3,4,5 on the Sinclair.

I've been playing with them both now for a few weeks, and I've come to the conclusing that they are measuring totally different misalignments so I'm now wondering which is more realistic of whats happening in the chamber.

Here is my latest set of measurement on a batch I just loaded. First I measured the runout with the sinclair, then the HH, then adjusted it to <1tho in the HH, then re measured it in the sinclair again.

Sinclair-HH-Sinclair
1.5 1.5 0
5 1
5 1 4
4 1
3 1 3
2.5 1 2.5
3 2 3.5
3 0.5
4.5 0.5
3 1 4
0.5 1.5 1.5
3 0.5
1.5 2 3
0.5 2 2
3 1.5 4.5
4 2 5
2 0.5
2.5 1 2
2 0.5
2 0.5
4 1 3
3 1 4
2 1 2
2.5 1 2.5
4 1 4.5
2 2.5 2
2 0
2 2 3
3.5 2.5 5
1.5 1 3
3 1 2
1 1.5 3
5 0.5
1 2 1.5
1.5 0.5
3 1 1
1 1 0
5 1 7
2 1.5 2
2 1 2
1 1
4 2 3

Now typeing these numbere in I realise that there is nothing over 5,sincair). These cases have been turned, so maybe thats reduced overall runout.

Whats interesting is that often a low reading in the sinclair has a higher sinclair reading after adjustment in the HH gauge.

Havnt shot any ammo at paper yet to see if "straight" ammo as measured by either gauge actually shoots better.

Anyone else out their got the H & H gauge that they have compared to other gauges???

Cheers

Grant

 

[Twud]

I have a Sinclair and with turned necks, Lapua brass, Redding Micrometer dies and Hammonds bullets or V-Max's I'm getting .0005" very consistently. Although much harder to use the RCBS case master agrees with the Sinclair.
I've also checked some Remington 22-250 brass is averages out to about .004".
I think it's in the brass. Try some Lapua or Norma.
I've read that anything 4 and under is acceptable.
Mark

 

[BoydAllen]

I have both gages. The problem is that I have only used the H&H on rounds that are relatively straight, so I have no way to compare to your results. In my case, I would say that I was correcting small seating errors. I do not believe that anything will effectively cure cases that are seriously crooked out of the sizing die. If your sized cases show much run out at the end of the case neck, before bullets are seated,measured on the Sinclair), your sizing die situation should be your first concern. If your brass is good after sizing, but your loaded rounds have excessive run out, then you should look to your seating die. I find that standard chambers are more critical as to loaded round straightness than are tight necked chambers, which will to a certain degree straighten, if the bullet engages the rifling, as the bolt is closed. just for fun, measure the diameters of fired and sized cases at the largest diameter above the head,usually about .3 up) and at the shoulder, and let me know how much sizing is taking place at these locations. Also, are you using standard one piece dies with expander balls? If you are, that is probably the major source of your concentricity problems. For benchrest, the limit is more like .002 on the bullet, and less is better. With the H&H, I can quickly turn .0015 into .00075 or less, while loading at a match. I also found that going to a better fitting seater helped.

 

[NZVarminter]

BouydAllen

Those loads were with Winchester 7mm08 brass that i have neck turned to skim 1 tho off and just clean up. They have been fired since neck turning, and runout on the fired cases is pretty consistant at under 1 tho. I'm sizing with an S Type die with no expander button and 2 tho neck tension.

I'm not so concerned with the amount of runout I'm getting, but more with the fact that I cant get similar readings with the sinclair and the H & H gauge. I'm assuming one of them must be "right",giving me a realistic representation of the misalignment of the projectile in the chamber) and the other is therefore "wrong" and just wasting my time!

Several other posts I've read about runout are saying they get similar readings with the RCBS and sinclair gauges, so obviously these two gauges are measuring the same misalignment. The Sinclair gauge indexes of the shoulder and near the case head, measuring the misalignment between this axis and the projectile. The H & H gauge indexes off the case wall thats cradled in a nylon V block, and the projectile tip. The H & H is measuring the misalignment between two points whereas the Sinclair is measuring the misalignment from a projection of the two supports.

The more I look at it, the more I am concerned the H & H gauge is not giving me any meaningfull readings!

 

[Taildrag15X]

I use a Bersin Tool.

 

[mikecr]

They are measuring different things.
The Sinclair represents a standard method in measurement.
The H&H is more like a nice gadget -with caveats.
Truly though, you do not have low runout, until measuring so on the Sinclair.

Picture a rigid jump rope with indicators about the arc.
-The Sinclair pins one end and the center. It indicates the free end remaining, showing total deviation.
-The H&H pins both ends, and measures close to one of the ends pinned. This produces a lower reading, usually giving shooters a warm fuzzy.

The results?
-If your bullets are not jammed, in a standard chamber, .006 of Sinclair runout,off the nose) will likely lead to a chambered bullet pointing way off center of bore. If this .006 was H&H runout, I'd be surprise that it chambered without damaging the bullet jacket.. This, because that round would actually measure .010 or more on a Sinclair.
-If your bullets are jammed, in a tight chamber, .006 of Sinclair runout may not mean anything w/regard to bullet pointing axis, but the case will adjust on firing,stress).
Here, the H&H provides a better representation of the situation IMO. Afterall, the chambered round here is pinned as it was measured on the H&H. -BUT ONLY IF JAMMED-

I spent some time while back comparing the two on my bench. I kept the Sinclair as most of my cartridge/bullet/barrels shoot better off the lands, and the Sinclair cannot mask conditions.