Does runout even matter. Look at the SAAMI 6mm NORMA BR blueprint. The chamber forcing cone is 0.2435” diameter. The bullet has to pass thru this small diameter, then the bullet is smashed by being heavily engraved by the rifling for 24”.
Run out
- Thread starter Paddyd
- Start date
Is this because they all turn their brass? I’d say that if you turn your brass, you don’t really need a mandrel, but if you’re using brass with unturned necks, a mandrel would help.
Like I said, custom rifles, tight fitting chambers, and turned necks.
Rich S
Silver $$ Contributor
A fairly budget friendly way to have expander mandrels is to use a collet bullet puller in combination with pin gages. If you have the collet puller, you can get the pin gages for around $5 each
The loading procedure I described I also use in my SAMMI spec chambered rifles, a long time ago when I first started to understand what it took to produce quality repeatable match grade ammo, I was like most of us out there chasing accuracy, if you are serious about accuracy? I asked a lot of questions on this forum, and I had friends that were competition shooters, that was back in the late 80's that were also serious hand loaders, though times and tooling have changed a lot since then and I have had to adapt different loading methods from the days of old, My friend Sonny Forbs told me this, runout is not your friend, he told me your bullets need to be as centered to the bore as possible, if you start off trying to force a bullet into the rifling off center it won't fly strait, because you are swaging the bullet as it goes into the rifling, That said, there is a lot more to building accurate ammo than this, IMO your brass prep is the most important step to start, and using good brass! JMO, I do not use a die that touches the neck when sizing the case body, neck sizing is done separately, LEE collet dies are not that expansive, they are a mandrel type die that create neck tension for your bullets, my 308win die gives 2.5k of tension on my bullets and 1k or less of runout, my latest 308win build with a Criterion 1&10 twist 26''BB has a SAMMI spec chamber hand lapped match barrel has less than 80rnds down the tube with my hand loads will shoot a small ragged hole in the paper at 100m. the bore is IMO just now starting to get a good copper fouling, after 40rnds the barrel went from shooting 1MOA to 1 ragged hole, just sayin.
L.Sherm
Silver $$ Contributor
Factory Rem SPS 700 22-250 saami chamber, bushing only, no annealing.
Its not just custom rifles that can shoot, tight chambers etc that can shoot good its the process and good bedding job.
Couldn't even tell you what the runout is.
Attachments
It looks like you have a process that works for you. As I said before, if your process works, by all means keep doing what you are doing.
For me, I am going to use some method to size the inside diameter of the case necks because I refuse to uniform the case neck thickness by turning down the outside of the case necks. I just don't want to get into that process and, you are not going to have uniform thickness of the case necks if you don't turn the outside. Even if you start with perfect brass, the brass will flow after repeated firings and require the case necks to be turned. If all you are using is a bushing, then all of your inconsistent neck thickness are being pushed to the inside and causing inconsistent grip on the bullet. That is assuming that you don't correct for this by turning the neck. So you are going to need to size the inside of the neck as a final process to push all the inconsistent neck irregularities back to the outside leaving the inside neck diameter consistent.
I'm not real big on AI but this is what AI says about it.
What the Expander Button Does
- Purpose: The expander button (sometimes called an expander ball) is part of many resizing dies. It pulls back through the case neck after resizing, setting the inside diameter to accept the bullet.
- Effect: It ensures consistent neck tension and prevents the neck from being too tight or irregular after sizing.
- Downside: It can introduce runout (bullet misalignment) if the stem isn’t perfectly centered, and it adds drag, which can stretch cases slightly.
When to Use It
- Standard Reloading: If you’re loading hunting or general-purpose ammo, the expander button is useful for reliable bullet seating.
- Mixed Brass: When brass varies in neck thickness, the expander helps normalize the inside diameter.
- New Reloaders: It’s forgiving and ensures bullets don’t shave copper or lead when seated.
When to Skip It
- Precision/Benchrest Loading: Many precision shooters remove the expander button to reduce case runout and case stretching.
- Neck Turning or Bushing Dies: If you’re using bushing dies (like Redding Type-S), you can size the neck precisely without an expander. This gives more consistent neck tension.
- Mandrel Alternative: Some reloaders prefer to size without the expander, then use a separate mandrel (like Sinclair or 21st Century) to set neck tension. This reduces drag and improves concentricity.
- For precision load development, consider removing the expander and using a mandrel system. That way, you control neck tension more precisely and reduce case distortion.
Neck concentricity at Lake City was the same spec for nato ball as it was for match. If you were shooting in a rice patty with a m-60 or at camp perry with a target rifle. Doug
Speedy made some interesting comments on runout in his last Believe the Target interview with Cortina, published yesterday. Said a person also needs to consider neck/throat clearance and the influence of the extractor ejector system in the chamber, also that regular bushing die cleaning is very necessary as the lube can build up and stop the bushing from floating. It's worth a listen.
Gosh Sherm! I realize I'm the new guy here and I really don't want to be picking a fight right away. Does everybody got to do things just like Sherm does? And if we don't we are all wrong? You are coming across as being really difficult.
Yea, made a lot of sense last nite with runout. Also, liked the part where he was discussing the .003 loaded neck diameter being under the chamber neck measurement and then .003 under the loaded neck diameter with the sizing bushing. With his system he is not using an expanding mandrel just prior to seating the bullet. Cortina agreed with him that within his process he would not benefit from a mandrel at all.
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
Yes, many people do not clean the inside of their dies
then get on here asking why... X Y Z is happening
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even a spidey will get up in there and make a web
clean your dies man! they dont clean themselves
L.Sherm
Silver $$ Contributor
I'm not being difficult, simply pointing out that the target is what matters.
You seem to believe that you have to have tight chambers, turned necks, to use a bushing otherwise a mandrel if you dont is simply not true. Results matter thats it there is no absolute wether its my process or yours.
I came here seeking friendly conversation with likeminded people who enjoy reloading and shooting. So far I have not been impressed with finding friendly conversation. Maybe I should just call this a bad mistake and move on.
MarkinPA, I don't think anyone here is being difficult, or meaning to sound that way, I think we all have different ways that work for us on our reloading methods, folks who have been reloading seriously tend to stick with what works for us the best, IMO you don't have to spend a ton of money, you just have to be smart about what you spend your money on, I think the goal here is to keep new reloaders from wasting money on buying dies and tooling that are not necessary to achieve the goals your looking for, I'm sure just about all of us old timers have spent a lot of money on dies and tooling that were a waste of money or a stepping stone to get where we are now, were just trying to save you the time and trouble of learning the hard way! the tooling I use is simple and easy to use and doesn't cost a bunch, but I had to take the long road to get there! just pay attention and don't take things personally!
DShortt
Gold $$ Contributor
Well, OK then.
Having read a lot, here and elsewhere, shooting factory rifles I decided on a process I thought was simple but seemed to yield good results. I use full length Redding bushing dies, Imperial wax, no button to size, I just tumble in walnut and use a universal decapper before. I then mandrel with a Wilson carbide mandrel and seat with a Redding competition seater. No annealing.
As far as I can tell that's giving me ammunition that shoots better than I can. I've seen 2" at 500yd, getting the wind wrong can put a shot a foot out!
I do start with Lapua brass and quality bullets, SMK, Berger, Lapua. Vihtavuori powder. The rifles are Tikka's.
I'm not saying I could compete in BR but you can load very good ammunition without too much effort that way. Enough to test the skills of most shooters. Learning to read the wind is much more difficult.
As far as I can tell that's giving me ammunition that shoots better than I can. I've seen 2" at 500yd, getting the wind wrong can put a shot a foot out!
I do start with Lapua brass and quality bullets, SMK, Berger, Lapua. Vihtavuori powder. The rifles are Tikka's.
I'm not saying I could compete in BR but you can load very good ammunition without too much effort that way. Enough to test the skills of most shooters. Learning to read the wind is much more difficult.
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