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RP 308 small primer brass (BR REM)

Not certain but I think it was used to make early 6BR, 7BR.

They even made some without primer holes so you could chose, or so I heard.

Don't quote me...
 
Yes; when Remington brought out the 7mm BR in the XP100 it was brought out to allow forming small primer brass for that caliber. It was several years before brass or loaded ammo was available for 7BR XPs. The other Rem BR calibers came from the 7BR originally developed for the XP100 pistol.
 
Per Sierra V, ~ In the late 1970s, Remington marketed a line of cases not intended to be loaded as it came from the factory. The Remington Bench Rest case was a thin-walled 308 Winchester case dimensioned to accept the small rifle primmer and specifically annealed for case forming.
 
Used it back in the early 80's to form 6X44BR. It was good quality brass even by todays standards. I think some cses were fired more than 100 times. Never lost a case to loose primer pockets. The only cases lost were those that split necks or shoulders if I was tardy in annealing. Today I use 6.5X47L, which is different dimensionally, and I cant really say its better.
 
Hombre0321 said:
I believe the purpose of the small primer .308 brass is for Palma Competitions.

No, the others are correct in saying it was intended for reforming to the BRs. It was known as Remington UBBR brass, UBBR being Unformed Basic Bench Rest.

Lapua picked up on the small primer / small flash-hole idea around seven or eight years ago at the request of the US Palma teams some of whose shooters were using original RP UBBR brass in the 308 Win form. The hope - and actuality as it turned out - was that the small primer Lapua brass would reduce MV spreads. This was initially controversial amongst the Fullbore / TR / Palma sling shooting fraternity. Many of the older hands had used RP UBBR brass when it was on general sale and claimed that it suffered from constant ignition inconsistencies, the Small Rifle primer being inadequately powerful to ignite 45-47gn charges consistently. A common wheeze had been to drill the 1.5mm (0.059") flash-holes out to the standard 2mm (0.081") size to overcome such problems.

Whether primers and/or powders have changed between the 80s and oughties, the Lapua brass has been an outstanding sucess and is used by nearly everyone in all long-range match disciplines that mandate the 308. It is affected however by cold weather - below freezing can see reduced MVs and larger spreads or even misfires in very cold conditions - so Lapua states on its information that Palma cases should not be used for hunting.

Despite being a specialist product, UBBR brass seems to have been spread very widely in the USA at least as questions about it, or people saying they still have a hundred or two are pretty common on forums such as this.
 
Jim Carmichael & Fred Huntington used this brass when developing the first version of the 22 CHeetah. They almost instantly had ignition problems when temps fell. They then went to 243 brass for the CHeetah Mk II.
 
EddieHarren said:
Jim Carmichael & Fred Huntington used this brass when developing the first version of the 22 CHeetah. They almost instantly had ignition problems when temps fell. They then went to 243 brass for the CHeetah Mk II.

I remember reading those articles also, damn Eddie yer an ole antique fart!!!!! :) After reading them I wanted a Cheetah but a Swift was as close as I got back then.
 
EddieHarren said:
Jim Carmichael & Fred Huntington used this brass when developing the first version of the 22 CHeetah. They almost instantly had ignition problems when temps fell. They then went to 243 brass for the CHeetah Mk II.

What kinda temps (how low) did they experience the problems?.........Just curious as i was always told that this brass and Lapua Palma brass would have ignition trouble in cold temps.

I shoot matches all year here in the south and obviously it doesn't get as cold as northern states but one match in particular comes to mind that i shot and i think it was 30-32 degree that morning and i didn't have any problems with Palma brass that morning, the load hammered as it normally does in 90+ temps......... ;)
 
The answer to that question is ..... it's variable. Depends on both the primer used and how easily the powder is ignited and achieves a clean, consistent burn. When I ran some tests back when the brass was first introduced, Viht N140 was affected at around 3-deg C (38F) but not a larger charge of Viht N150. Rerunning the N140 loads at 10-deg C (50F) on another day, saw groups and ES values shrink and the average MV rise back to what it should have been.

Although ball powders have traditionally been regarded as hard to ignite, a case-full charge of H414 gave excellent results on a day with low single figure Centigrade temperatures.

So, make of that what you will :-\ !! The US Palma teams put Lapua Palma ammo in a fridge overnight and it still performed well within minutes of being removed. I imagine H. VarGet isn't a difficult powder to ignite fully.
 
Laurie said:
The answer to that question is ..... it's variable. Depends on both the primer used and how easily the powder is ignited and achieves a clean, consistent burn. When I ran some tests back when the brass was first introduced, Viht N140 was affected at around 3-deg C (38F) but not a larger charge of Viht N150. Rerunning the N140 loads at 10-deg C (50F) on another day, saw groups and ES values shrink and the average MV rise back to what it should have been.

Although ball powders have traditionally been regarded as hard to ignite, a case-full charge of H414 gave excellent results on a day with low single figure Centigrade temperatures.

So, make of that what you will :-\ !! The US Palma teams put Lapua Palma ammo in a fridge overnight and it still performed well within minutes of being removed. I imagine H. VarGet isn't a difficult powder to ignite fully.

Thanks for the response Laurie.....The load i shot that morning (two strings) was with 200 hybrids and Varget in palma brass and it shot well......I also tested one string that morning with H4895 and 200s and it shot well also without problems.
 
SDWhirlwind, you are correct! I am an old fart. I wanted one of those CHeetahs as well but at the time was heavily invested in a 12 twist 6x284 with 60 Gr. Sierra HP bullets and a case full of H450. I thought I had died and gone to prairie dog nirvana. Czech CZ Mauser action, Douglas barrel, Chet Brown stock and Unertl 15X Ultra-Varmint.
 
The 6mmBR and 22 BR precede the 7mm BR by a few years. Remington at the time did not think the BR line of cartridges would ever have the penetration in the market to justify manufacturing the ammo or even brass. So the URBR was a compromise. The small primer was chosen because the benchresters were also convinced that a SP was beneficial for accuracy. The use of these basic cases in 308 form by long range shooters came about from Whitaker and a few other Palma shooters striving for best accuracy at 600 yards and beyond.

Ignition problems at low temps come from low brisance primers and slow powders with deterrent coatings in my experience. So when I used them in 308s I used Rem 7 1/2 primers and powders no slower than 4064. YMMV.
 
EddieHarren said:
SDWhirlwind, you are correct! I am an old fart. I wanted one of those CHeetahs as well but at the time was heavily invested in a 12 twist 6x284 with 60 Gr. Sierra HP bullets and a case full of H450. I thought I had died and gone to prairie dog nirvana. Czech CZ Mauser action, Douglas barrel, Chet Brown stock and Unertl 15X Ultra-Varmint.

Now you are talking my language! I am not that old....maybe a bit retro though. Love the old 1950's bench rifles. Have an ARISAKA with a Douglass in 220 Swift and I love shooting the old gal. And even better, since I only paid 200 dollars for it, it is great to smack a chuck at 500 in front of my buddy who spent $2500 for his rifle... ;D
 
Riflewoman, thanks for correcting my timeline - I was a serious IHMSA shooter when Remington brought out the 7BR, and not having shot benchrest for a few years at that time, I wasn't aware of the 6BR and .22BR until I had formed a bunch of UBBR brass for the 7BR and had shot it for about a year. I know they were all loosely based on a wildcat .308 x 1 1/2" cartridge (.308 x 1 1/2" Barnes?), but I was not aware of the order they came out - I thought that the 7BR was first as that's the first one I ran into, which came from being the first guy on the block with a 7BR Rem XP100, lol. I do remember that there was also a .308 x 1 3/4" wildcat too, and I often wished that the 7BR Remington had been based on that because of the heavier 7mm bullets.
 
Yeah, what caused the 7BR was handgun metallic silhouette. Remington was responding to the custom guys taking XP-100s and rebarrelling to 308. Remington preferred 7mm bore at the time so they went with that, the BR chambering was insisted on by Jim Steckl. They did find that full sized 308 based cartridges kicked way too hard to be comfortable in long matches,
 
Please educate me! I thought one of the reasons for the small rifle primer in the Palma 308, 6.5x47L , the BR family and etc. was so they could run more pressure and not blow primer pockets. I am running some top of the chart loads in 6.5x47L and even after 10 reloads the small rifle primers seat HARD, much harder than new factory 308's.

Bill
 
bsekf said:
Please educate me! I thought one of the reasons for the small rifle primer in the Palma 308, 6.5x47L , the BR family and etc. was so they could run more pressure and not blow primer pockets.
Bill

That's a bonus, not the reason for using the SRP. At CIP maximum average allowed pressures for the 6.5X47L and SAAMI's for the 308 Win, large primer brass handles pressure fine, but will see primer pockets gradually enlarge with full pressure or just over full pressure loads. The rationale for SR primer brass is to match primer brisance better to the charge size and reduce velocity spreads for long-range shooting, and for small groups in short-range BR set-ups. The combination has done this outstandingly well in the PPCs and BRs for 30 plus years now. Lapua produced both LR and SR primer 6.5X47L cases at the pre-production stage, but obviously decided that the latter suited the performance characteristics of the cartridge better for its intended role.

(That was not mid to long-range F-Class incidentally, rather 300 metre 3-position ISSF shooting which is very big in some parts of Europe and where success garners great prestige and publicity for the top shooters, their rifle and ammunition manufacturers. The x47L was a flop in this role - nothing wrong with it just none of the top competitors adopted it. The discipline was 90% + dominated by 6mm BR Norma pre the Lapua cartridge launch, and still is today.)

Whilst Lapua small primer case-heads are really tough, the 6.5X47L has turned out to be a very attractive seducer of those who think they can make this little number match 6.5-284 performance, and I regularly hear MV claims which if accurate need 70-80,000 psi pressures. The small primers don't show very high pressures usually and the first indication of overload is often a blown primer and vastly expanded primer pocket. Keep to sensible loads and it's only work hardening of the neck and shoulder that limits case life, likewise Lapua's 308 Win Palma brass, and an annealing machine soon earns its outlay.
 
Thank you Laurie. Now I know the rest of the story. I keep my loads at or below those published.

Bill "to soon old, to late smart"
 

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