RIFLESMITH LIABILITY

[RJ]

Are any of guys using liability release forms when you have customers that seems like they don't have enough since to know which end of the gun to hang on to?

The reason I ask is, I have a customer that I built a rifle for that in 23 rounds has managed to ruin the throat and crown with a stainless steel jag and no bore guide. Chipped the bolt lug while trying to chamber rounds that were too long. And of course it galled the abutment lug. Then decides that a bump die would solve all the problems. He proceeds without knowledge or a chamber gauge. First round he fires after bumping the shoulders back so far, The case head separates. He manages to get that one out on his own and and fires another. It separates also, he is unable to remove this one. So out comes the tool box. After hours of trying and sticking everything but the kitchen sink down this Match Barrel he brings it back to me to remove the whats left of the cartridge.

I removed the brass with no problems, Then clean and borescope the barrel to find that the lands and grooves 3 inches in front of the throat are all chewed up.

In the 20 years that I have been building Custom Rifles I have never seen a rifle destroyed that fast. That's what worries me. With the condition of the rifle now I really don't want to give it back to him without a release of liability. I think that it wouldn't be a problem if the guy would just listen, But he is one of the KNOW IT ALL types. It's just a matter of time before something bad happens, And I don't want to get sued over no fault of my own. The cost of litigation alone is enough to bankrupt most of us Custom Riflebuilders.

I just wanted to share this story with some of the other Riflesmiths that our liability never seems to end, Even when the customer is at fault.

It's just something to think about when the next guy comes into your shop and you are not to sure about his abilities and he is not willing to listen. This experience just reminded me of how venerable those of us in this Profession are. Okay everybody who wants to be a Custom Riflesmith!

RJ

 

[eww1350]

You might be giving him ideas if you ask for a liability release...I recommend that you give him a written description of all the damage you have found...I would also send it to him via email so you have dated proof of your communication...lastly advise him of potential danger if he does not use extreme care with his loading and firing of the weapon...advising him to get qualified help for reloading of ammunition...

 

[Dans40X]

just a thought-
Once documented,show the idiot what he's screwed up in short order by offering him a look thru the bore scope for verification.
Do not let the idiot touch the bore scope-just look.

Offer to cash him out of the rifle to keep himself & others safe.

Selective screening customers that know all, will soon step on themselves in a 1/2 hr 'phone conversation.

 

[jsn]

Charge him for your time at your shop rate for the work you have done on his screwup. Make sure the paper he signs documents all of the problems found and states that the rifle is unsafe to fire at this time due to the damaged state it was brought in.

If he won't pay you, keep his rifle for a workman's lien. If he sues you it would probably be in Small Claims Court--much easier to explain to a judge without a lawyer telling him to keep his mouth shut and trying to massage the facts and use legal mumbo jumbo.

Someone a while back was lamenting the purchase of bore scope and video equipment without the ability to charge for its use and recoup the investment. Maybe this type of equipment is exactly what is needed to protect yourself from his type, to document what left your shop and what came back. Charge appropriately. My guess is that you knew he might be trouble when he came in to your shop--you may not need to use it on every job--but I'll bet your judgement is pretty good.

I'm not a gunsmith--I was thinking of going to Lassen, but then I looked at the caliber of people going to guns shows. It's those invading microbes that always run amok. I decided I didn't want to deal with the public.

Good luck.

PS--I'm not qualified to give legal advice either, of course. Most attorneys will give you several minutes over the phone informally, when they have time. You might give this a try for some angles more aligned with state laws, etc.

 

[GermanS1]

RJ, I don't like to give legal advice on the internet, so just take this as friendly advice - make sure you have adequate liability insurance. Your carrier may assist on releases and related advice, if not, a few hours of an attorney's time will be worth your while. Just part of the cost of doing business today.

 

[TheSnake]

Do you, as a smith, have the right to not return the rifle in an unsafe fireable condition or render it unable to fire before returning it? Can you say you had to remove the barrel to get the case out and the barrel is unsafe so you can't remount the barrel?

 

[dksac2]

Not sure if it was the right thing to do liability wise, but I would not charge him for the work done if it was just inspection, at least in that case, make a list of everthing wrong and return it with a copy of the receipt with "Not Safe to Fire or Chamber a Live round it this Rile Ser #, Brand etc.
I'd make copies of everthing, I'd always did a safety check, documented on every firearm that came into the shop listing all the safety checks done, FP protrustion, H.S etc, also listed everything wrong with the firearm and list every safety issue. There was a place to add to it if a firearm was unsafe to fire, to be signed by the owner, if he would not sign, write Refused to Sign.
Any marks or damage was also noted. All safety checks were noted when the rifle was done, and it pays to know every safety feature on every model of firearm that you work on and note every single one, no matter how small.

Many times it best not to do any work other than maybe removing the stuck cartridge, but if you can see safety issues, one's that cannot be fixed 100% by you, write refused to work on firearm, firearm is unsafe to fire, again, have him sign it.

When you have a safety sheet on every firearm worked on, listing every check done, and they vary by make and type of firearm, if taken to court, you have a powerful tool showing every firearm is checked for safety, test fired, one case or more to the customer, one in a small bag stapled to you check sheet.

To me, that is the best thing that you could have done other than refusing to accept the firearm at all, telling the customer he hurt the firearm to the point it was no longer safe, still doing a check list to keep in your records as to why you reused to accept the rifle and if he will, have him sign it. Do it quickly, telling him this was what you found wrong, have him sign, write Rifle Unsafe To Fire on the receipt, then give the rifle back and a copy of the receipt.

I went as far as removing the firing pin and taping it to the rifle sometimes, noting the FP was removed for safety reasons, then if he puts it back in, it's on him, explain nicely why the FP was removed, if he pitches a fit, well life is just sometimes not fair.

As noted, take pictures of the damage, through a bore scope if you have one or can take the rifle to a shop that does have one, most smiths will help another when things like this happen, I know I would.
Good Luck, John

 

[tenring]

RJ, I don't like to give legal advice on the internet, so just take this as friendly advice - make sure you have adequate liability insurance. Your carrier may assist on releases and related advice, if not, a few hours of an attorney's time will be worth your while. Just part of the cost of doing business today.

By all means, document the problems, give him a copy, keep one for yourself.

Prior to retirement, for 23 years, I was a product liability specialist with an independent investigation service for many manufacturers. I have investigated numerous cases for Winchester-Olin and others. Every gunsmith should be aware, that when he puts the parts of a firearm together, he is by law, a manufacturer. To protect himself, he needs product liability coverage and completed operations coverage. Completed operations covers legal issues arising long after the transaction is completed. In litigation, defense costs can accumulate to a hgh level. By having these coverages, your insurer will pay them. Even if you win a case, you need to pay defense counsel if you do not have these coverages. Talk to your agent.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Product's liability is a sticky problem for anyone that builds rifles, repairs them, or provides parts (even if they are not the manufacturer).

I am not a lawyer either, but I've been around the block a bit.

Do yourself a big favor: Follow German's advice - get reasonable products liability insurance that includes the costs of defense. Just having that kind of insurance saved my family business (in aviation) from bankruptcy when a frivolous suit was filed against us over an accident.

I would also advise anyone out there to consider separating their personal finances from their smithing business in the form of a limited liability arrangement (LLC or Corporation - see your lawyer), and take the steps necessary (you need a lawyer's advice) to prevent anyone the ability to pierce the "corporate veil."

With all of that done, you will be able to sleep at night. Even if the worst happens, your personal property and ability to make a living will not be so much at jeopardy.

Take my advice for what you paid for it...

 

[RJ]

Thanks for all the response.

I do have a LLC that covers my shop. I don't know if my insurance covers the cost of defense. In the 20 yrs I have been a fulltime Riflesmith I have never had to file a claim. I'll have to check this coming week and make the necessary changes if needed. I have made contact with my Attorney and have scheduled an appointment to discuss a Liability Release or what would be the best exit strategy. I don't want to to make the repairs to the rifle. I still have the rifle and I am not going to release it until I sort this out.

I do have a borescope in my shop and I did take pictures with it of the Rifle bore, Throat, Crown, and the bolt last week.

All of the responses to this post have been helpful. Thanks for all the advice guys.
RJ

 

[dksac2]

The liability insurance is a must.

There have been a couple times, seeing how the customer was, that I have re barreled a rifle a customer messed up on my dime simply because it's cheaper to hang a new tube than to go to court. It's something to think about.

If I know the customer and know he's the type to accept responsibility, them I'd offer to re barrel at my cost.
It was good business sense, it cost me some profit, but these type of incidents were rare enough or something small, it saved going to court and anything you can do to stay out of court is money well spent.

Just be sure the customer understands how he ruined the barrel and knows how to properly care for his rifle.
Not that all will follow your advise, but I'd take a lot of time making sure new customers knew how to properly break in, clean and load for his rifle, the time again cuts into profit, but keeps bad things from happening many times and I think it got me more business because the customer could see that I really cared that his rifle was the best it could be and was loaded the correct way for what was done with the chamber of the rifle, they will come back for their next rifle because you didn't just treat them as if you were glad to see their rifle go so you can get onto the next.
Many smiths do not spend enough time educating customers, some know, others think they do and many don't know much at all, it's time well spent in my book.

Good Luck, John K

 

[RJ]

John,
I'm glad you brought up that point, I spent about 3 1/2 hrs with this customer. I stressed the importance of proper care of this rifle. From the action to the crown. I then SHOWED him the cleaning equipment I use to clean Rifles in my shop and how to use it. I told him where to get them if he didn't want to buy them from me. I explained the importance of a quality boreguide, cleaning rods, brass jags and brushes. I explained what solvents to use and how to mix them ( Kroil and Shooters) and ones not to use on the stainless barrel. I then told him how to break the barrel. With every Rifle I complete I give the customer detailed instructions on paper of all of the things I just explained. And I have done that for years.

Well, This guy just looked at the paper and told me he didn't need that, As he already knew how to do it . And he already knew how to reload too. He then threw the paper on the bench.

It looks like he didn't listen to a single thing I told him. I always tell my clients that if they have any questions or if there is something they are not sure about call me. He never called.

I don't think there was anything I could have said that would have prevented this from happening. You can't teach someone that already knows everything or is not willing to listen.

I often wonder if the average customer knows the amount Craftsmanship and Pride that those of us in this profession put into every Rifle that leaves our shops. To have a rifle that you spent that much effort on beat up that quick is disappointing to say the least.
RJ

 

[dksac2]

I've had this type of customer, very few, but they are out there. I also have got bad feelings from a few and simply told them I was too busy to build them a rifle now, call back in a year.

Once you have built the rifle, it's too late, they get it in their hands and think they know better than the smith who took a great deal of time building the rifle.

I guess when possible, refuse to build a rifle or do work on it if you get really bad feelings about a customer, trust your gut.

I'd ask him what he wants to do, show him where he did wrong and offer to fix it, but if he brings it back wrecked again because it's obvious he is not following your directions, he's on his own. Show him written things that back up what you are saying and show how his method is hurting the rifle.

No matter what, it's a tough one and one we in the business have run into at least once if not more often. Build enough rifles and it's a matter of odds. Thank God most customers are very good.

My Best and God Bless, John

In this case, cheaper to eat one than go to court.

 

[kendog]

Are any of guys using liability release forms when you have customers that seems like they don't have enough since to know which end of the gun to hang on to?

The reason I ask is, I have a customer that I built a rifle for that in 23 rounds has managed to ruin the throat and crown with a stainless steel jag and no bore guide. Chipped the bolt lug while trying to chamber rounds that were too long. And of course it galled the abutment lug. Then decides that a bump die would solve all the problems. He proceeds without knowledge or a chamber gauge. First round he fires after bumping the shoulders back so far, The case head separates. He manages to get that one out on his own and and fires another. It separates also, he is unable to remove this one. So out comes the tool box. After hours of trying and sticking everything but the kitchen sink down this Match Barrel he brings it back to me to remove the whats left of the cartridge.

I removed the brass with no problems, Then clean and borescope the barrel to find that the lands and grooves 3 inches in front of the throat are all chewed up.

In the 20 years that I have been building Custom Rifles I have never seen a rifle destroyed that fast. That's what worries me. With the condition of the rifle now I really don't want to give it back to him without a release of liability. I think that it wouldn't be a problem if the guy would just listen, But he is one of the KNOW IT ALL types. It's just a matter of time before something bad happens, And I don't want to get sued over no fault of my own. The cost of litigation alone is enough to bankrupt most of us Custom Riflebuilders.

I just wanted to share this story with some of the other Riflesmiths that our liability never seems to end, Even when the customer is at fault.

It's just something to think about when the next guy comes into your shop and you are not to sure about his abilities and he is not willing to listen. This experience just reminded me of how venerable those of us in this Profession are. Okay everybody who wants to be a Custom Riflesmith!

RJ

RJ,
Is the customer making lawsuit noises? Or did he just trash your fine work? If he screwed it up you are not obligated to do it all over again, at your expense, just "in case". What are you liable for? If he is threatening you, then notify your insurance carrier and let them deal with it. My policy has cost of defense built into it to cover me before any court time happens. As I understand it that is what will eat most of us alive. Attorney fees way beore any settlement.
A while back a club I am a member of wanted to elect me as "club armorer". I asked for a release of liability or some kind of hold-harmless document and the attorney that was helping draw up some new bylaws said the same thing that has been said here, that document would be essentially worthless while good insurance to cover lawyer fees in the event something happens is worth its weight in gold.

You have to go with your gut too. It is smarter to avoid all the BS if you can, even if you are "right".

Good luck with this and please keep us posted.

 

[RandyD]

I have been an attorney for over 18 years. I do civil litigation and I'll add my 2 cents to this discussion. The world of civil litigation is not civil and you will not enjoy your time involved in the civil justice system. I have not met a client who likes it, even the ones who win money. Attorney fees in serious injury cases can add up very quickly; think in the neighborhood of $100,000.00+. The advice of getting a liability policy is sound, and your insurance company is obligated to defend you, meaning, they will provide you with an attorney. One of the most important points that I want to make is, you have to remember, you can be sued by people you have never met. As a hypothetical, if you do a trigger job, and someone gets shot with that firearm, even intentionally in self defense, the injured person's attorney can name you in a lawsuit and you will be involved in the case to the end. If your customer is injured or killed his family can sue you. Just remember, we live in America where someone else is always responsible for our misfortune.

A written liability release and waiver will rarely exclude a person from being sued. A good attorney can persuade a judge that the release was too general, vague, ambigious to exclude a defendant from liability.