Rifle ID

[robert whaley]

Got this from a friend and no idea what it is. Mosin Nagant? Barrel has Remington Armory mark, been covered up. No cocking piece knob, and the sight maybe not correct. The caliber marking has me confused also. Looks put together from parts because
no serial number stamped on barrel. Just wondering. Thanks

 

[Sniperhandle]

Yes, That is a Mosin Nagant that has been converted from the original 7.62x54R to 7.65 Argentine, Possibly a Bannerman Conversion? It would be cool for you to take it apart and show pics of the action at several angles and the magazine, I have done several caliber conversions on these rifles and to see what others have done to facilitate feeding, ejecting etc. would be useful info.

Bannerman converted these to 30-06, He may have done other caliber conversions, Just a guess on my part, He used mostly Remington actions as yours is, Which is another reason I believe this could be a Bannerman conversion.

The barrel was cutoff and rethreaded as the 54R cartridge is quite a bit larger in diameter, This is why the barrel number is missing, The 7.65 Argentine is shorter than the 30-06 so I would not worry about the safety of firing it as long as everything else checks out ok.

The 30-06 Bannerman conversions are said to be unsafe as the tenon diameter is quite reduced after the cutting and rethreading, Although people still shoot them and I don't believe there is a documented failure.

 

[Sniperhandle]

Pic of a Bannerman conversion in 30-06. This Drawing still shows the early Mosin rear site, Later Bannerman's used a 30-40 Krag Rear site. You can see that the forearm has been shortened to look just about like yours and I believe a barrel band from an Argentine Mauser was used.

 

[Sniperhandle]

You can see in this pic from google how much the barrel tenon has been shortened on a 30-06 Bannerman conversion and how the 30-06 cartridge will be well into the smaller diameter of the barrel, And why they say the 30-06 conversions are unsafe to shoot, A 30-06 case is 62mm in length, A 7.65 Argentine is 53mm in length so the tenon should be longer and therefore safer to shoot.

 

[robert whaley]

Yes, That is a Mosin Nagant that has been converted from the original 7.62x54R to 7.65 Argentine, Possibly a Bannerman Conversion? It would be cool for you to take it apart and show pics of the action at several angles and the magazine, I have done several caliber conversions on these rifles and to see what others have done to facilitate feeding, ejecting etc. would be useful info.

Bannerman converted these to 30-06, He may have done other caliber conversions, Just a guess on my part, He used mostly Remington actions as yours is, Which is another reason I believe this could be a Bannerman conversion.

The barrel was cutoff and rethreaded as the 54R cartridge is quite a bit larger in diameter, This is why the barrel number is missing, The 7.65 Argentine is shorter than the 30-06 so I would not worry about the safety of firing it as long as everything else checks out ok.

The 30-06 Bannerman conversions are said to be unsafe as the tenon diameter is quite reduced after the cutting and rethreading, Although people still shoot them and I don't believe there is a documented failure.

Thanks for the good info. After reading about Bannerman I will make a guess they did not make mine. I found no info on conversions by them to 7.65; still possible. Also it is said they would normally blue the bolt head. Mine is not. And the 30-06 barrels were stamped on the shank with caliber, none on mine. So my
uninformed guess is it was made by a smith in the 'style' of Bannerman with caliber chosen by the smith or customer. I may never shoot it but it's nice to know something about it. I still wonder who made the sight and what the numbers on the leafs mean. 10 and 16. Thanks again.

 

[Sniperhandle]

Looking at the pics, The barrel tenon looks to be at least a half inch longer than those of the 30-06 Bannerman conversions, So I would not be at all afraid to fire your example. 7.65 Argentine dies and brass can be found pretty easily still, So If I had the good fortune to have that, I would reload some cartridges and shoot it.

The barrels are 0.310 bore, And the 7.65 Argentines are 0.311 bore so you can use bullets designed for the 303 British and that actually made more sense than the 30-06 conversions which were not as accurate.

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[JSH]

Thanks for the history lesson. I find these old conversions interesting.
Years ago I ran across a fellow with a converted to left hand bolt military action(slips my mind which one). It was definitely questionable lol.

 

[coorslight]

A Politician hybrid? sits there and doesn't work!

 

[tobnpr]

That's an odd one, doubt it was Bannerman as this appears to be a one-off, more likely a gunsmith sporter conversion IMO

Done a bunch myself, the '06 conversion requires mag, boltface (bushing, extractor), receiver, and ejector mods and this would as well... inquiring minds would like to see some photos of the above
The first photo shows very minimal, if any setback of the barrel. I haven't looked at chamber prints but the argentine case is similar to the .06 and its brass can be formed for it. Not clear how this could be done without needing substantial setback as with the .06

Me, I wouldn't shoot it without a chamber cast and headspace check.
Interesting one for sure.

 

[robert whaley]

That's an odd one, doubt it was Bannerman as this appears to be a one-off, more likely a gunsmith sporter conversion IMO

Done a bunch myself, the '06 conversion requires mag, boltface (bushing, extractor), receiver, and ejector mods and this would as well... inquiring minds would like to see some photos of the above
The first photo shows very minimal, if any setback of the barrel. I haven't looked at chamber prints but the argentine case is similar to the .06 and its brass can be formed for it. Not clear how this could be done without needing substantial setback as with the .06

Me, I wouldn't shoot it without a chamber cast and headspace check.
Interesting one for sure.

That's an odd one, doubt it was Bannerman as this appears to be a one-off, more likely a gunsmith sporter conversion IMO

Done a bunch myself, the '06 conversion requires mag, boltface (bushing, extractor), receiver, and ejector mods and this would as well... inquiring minds would like to see some photos of the above
The first photo shows very minimal, if any setback of the barrel. I haven't looked at chamber prints but the argentine case is similar to the .06 and its brass can be formed for it. Not clear how this could be done without needing substantial setback as with the .06

Me, I wouldn't shoot it without a chamber cast and headspace check.
Interesting one for sure.

I agree. Looks like the area where the serial # would be is removed for set back maybe??

 

[tobnpr]

Can't tell from the photo- was the S/N peened away like the Remington Armory above?
Here is a hi-res photo of what it should look like. As you can see, there's very little if any setback on your barrel based on the amount of exposed barrel. Perhaps a tiny bit as I mentioned, but the barrel and the stock cutout show a full or nearly full length barrel cylinder. If there was setback, I don't see how it could have been enough to clean up a 54r chamber. Slim chance it could be a capture which resulted in the peening there, do you see an "SA" (Finnish Civil Guard) or any other engravings on the side of the receiver?

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I assume the boltface is bushed? The Argentine is a rimless cartridge much smaller than the 54r rim.
Take a light and look into the receiver at the barrel breech. Do see the original extractor cut in the barrel between about 1:00 and 5:00?

I'm still trying to figure out that trigger safety modification. Seen a few old sporter mods, but never anything like that...

 

[robert whaley]

No sign of peening where the Ser # would have been and no SA on receiver. The barrel breech has a milled area apx. 1 to 5:00, looks like the cut is in both the receiver and barrel breech. The safety seems to operate fine, but it does make it a bear to take down the bolt.

 

[Sniperhandle]

It's a very interesting conversion, Especially the trigger blocking safety, The ejector has the same Bannerman mods done to it, But the Bolt face and breech are definitely not Bannerman.