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Riddle me this Batman. BC applicability question

SteveOak

Gold $$ Contributor
I am working on figuring out my next cartridge. I liked the 7 LRM but the brass selection is very limited and Gunwerks, the promoter, has abandoned it in favor of the 7 PRC which became my next choice.

Somewhere along the way someone said something about looking at heavy for caliber 6.5 (Or it might have been 6 mm) bullets and I had a look. The Berger 6.5 mm, 153.5 LR Hybrid has a BC of 0.365. The Berger 184 F-Open Hybrid, which I would likely use if I go with the 7 PRC, has a G7 BC of 0.365.

I ran trajectory calcs for both at 3,000 MV and the drop, windage, and time of flight were identical out to 2,500 yards, the furthest I would expect to ever shoot.

Am I missing something or would both bullets, if launched at the same MV, be affected equally by the wind and by gravity?
 
If BC is identical, trajectory and drift are identical with the same MV. But, single number BC’s are not necessarily the full picture, as BC changes with velocity. So trajectory & drift might not actually be fully identical, but would be very close.
 
If BC is identical, trajectory and drift are identical with the same MV. But, single number BC’s are not necessarily the full picture, as BC changes with velocity. So trajectory & drift might not actually be fully identical, but would be very close.
Good point.
Even if the two bullets retain the same velocity downrange, the heavier bullet will have more momentum.
 
It Hard to Argue against, the 7 PRC clocking 3,000 FPS +- with, the Bigger, High BC, Bullets for, Good, "Drop's" / Wind Drift and w/ Reasonable, Recoil ( especially w/ a GOOD, Brake ! ).
My son's, Semi Custom, 24" , 7 PRC, is, an Accurate ( Group's in, the .3's / .4's ), L-R Steel,.. "Thumper" w/ 180 gr. ELD-M's @ 3,015 fps, using,.. RamShot Grand / ADG Brass.
Being Braked and at, 8 3/4 lbs,..it's "fairly Pleasant" to, shoot !
His 7 PRC beats, the Chit, outta my 6.5 Creed at, 850 yds ( Except in, the "Recoil, Dept",.. LOL )
IT really,.. WANG'S,.. the Steel ! ( 6.5 Creed.,.. Pew,... Ting )
STILL Gotta "Know", the Wind Drift,.. even with, THAT,. "Monster" !
 
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So is this just for ELR distances?
The 30 cals. 300 Norma mag and Lapua 300 mag. are nice options.
Brass is available for both.
According to gravity, two bullets with different weights but same B.C.
and same muzzle velocity are suppose to drop or drift at the same rate.
Talk to others and you'll get different answers.
 
So is this just for ELR distances?
The 30 cals. 300 Norma mag and Lapua 300 mag. are nice options.
Brass is available for both.
According to gravity, two bullets with different weights but same B.C.
and same muzzle velocity are suppose to drop or drift at the same rate.
Talk to others and you'll get different answers.
Yes but we have all heard, Talk is Cheap.
 
In theory, yes. In application doubtful

First it’s rare that actual BC and advertised BC is the same. The advertised number is an average over a distance. If you’re not shooting that same distance the BC will be off.
If you run the calculator with various BC numbers, you’ll find around .5 MOA difference per .001 change at 2500 yards.

Stability difference down range as the bullet drops through the transonic velocities will likely make a difference. If one bullet wobbles less than the other, it will rob energy and change the drop of one more than the other.
 
gravity works on all bullets the same regardless of weight. The difference is time of flight to distance that will affect the drop number. While lighter low BC bullets are good for a laser flat trajectory out to 700-800, they bleed off speed faster than the heavier bullets which keep on chugging and are actually faster at distance than the lighter bullets that start off faster.

Look at the time of flight number to your desired distance for comparison. The less time it is in the air, the less time wind can push it.
 
I am working on figuring out my next cartridge. I liked the 7 LRM but the brass selection is very limited and Gunwerks, the promoter, has abandoned it in favor of the 7 PRC which became my next choice.

Somewhere along the way someone said something about looking at heavy for caliber 6.5 (Or it might have been 6 mm) bullets and I had a look. The Berger 6.5 mm, 153.5 LR Hybrid has a BC of 0.365. The Berger 184 F-Open Hybrid, which I would likely use if I go with the 7 PRC, has a G7 BC of 0.365.

I ran trajectory calcs for both at 3,000 MV and the drop, windage, and time of flight were identical out to 2,500 yards, the furthest I would expect to ever shoot.

Am I missing something or would both bullets, if launched at the same MV, be affected equally by the wind and by gravity?
Of the two the easy choice is the 184 for me as it’s going to be easier to spot impacts yet recoil is still mild so easier to consistently shoot well.

If you’re considering the 184 I’d definitely look at the 190.

Substantially better BC and excellent consistency of BC for very little speed loss.
 
Last edited:
So is this just for ELR distances?
The 30 cals. 300 Norma mag and Lapua 300 mag. are nice options.
Brass is available for both.
According to gravity, two bullets with different weights but same B.C.
and same muzzle velocity are suppose to drop or drift at the same rate.
Talk to others and you'll get different answers.
All things drop at the same rate regardless of BC
Just that the higher BC bullet gets there Faster so spends less TIME in Gravity
-------Dropping less
All bullets will drop basically the same amount in 1 second of time
IE: A higher BC bullet might get to the target in half a second though vs 1 second
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The higher BC bullet Also retains more velocity per every 100 yds which translates to more retained energy and takes over past 600 yds.
One reason I favor smaller Faster HIGH BC bullets over
Big Heavy but low BC bullets
-------
The lighter bullets with HIGH BC's will actually have more RETAINED energy past 600 yds
(In Most cases)
Say a .713 BC 7mm vs a .500BC .308 cal
or a .620 BC 243 AI vs a .500 BC 150 gr 7 mag
The 243 AI will actually have more energy at Long Range than a 7mm Mag hunting rifle
 
So is this just for ELR distances?
The 30 cals. 300 Norma mag and Lapua 300 mag. are nice options.
Brass is available for both.
According to gravity, two bullets with different weights but same B.C.
and same muzzle velocity are suppose to drop or drift at the same rate.
Talk to others and you'll get different answers.
Yes, my interest is for 1 mile and (Maybe) 2,440 yards. I believe that is the longest gong distance at Thunder Valley.
 
I shoot both of these bullets a lot at these distances. Given the same BC and velocity, the trajectory will be the same as stated above. The heavier bullet will have a better impact signature, which can be the difference between poke-and-hope and precision adjustments in the right conditions.

Getting the 153.5 to the same velocity as the 184 is possible but I like the characteristics of the 7mm offerings better than the 6.5s. I feel like you will be more over-bore in the 6.5s than the 7s and the tune, barrel life and other factors will suffer.

Lastly, I tune extensively at long range and shoot the 184s a lot. I routinely get the G7 to 0.370 or higher by careful pointing. The 153.5 is already pointed so they are maxed out already.

I shoot light gun elr with the 184s and am happy with them. I had to shoot 153.5 at Nightforce one year when my 284 went down but would never choose that as the primary for this and longer elr matches.
 
I shoot both of these bullets a lot at these distances. Given the same BC and velocity, the trajectory will be the same as stated above. The heavier bullet will have a better impact signature, which can be the difference between poke-and-hope and precision adjustments in the right conditions.

Getting the 153.5 to the same velocity as the 184 is possible but I like the characteristics of the 7mm offerings better than the 6.5s. I feel like you will be more over-bore in the 6.5s than the 7s and the tune, barrel life and other factors will suffer.

Lastly, I tune extensively at long range and shoot the 184s a lot. I routinely get the G7 to 0.370 or higher by careful pointing. The 153.5 is already pointed so they are maxed out already.

I shoot light gun elr with the 184s and am happy with them. I had to shoot 153.5 at Nightforce one year when my 284 went down but would never choose that as the primary for this and longer elr matches.
184 pointed to .370 is pretty impressive and up close to the 190.

I concur with the 6.5 vs 7mm at ELR distances.
Did you do the NF shoot over the weekend?
 
184 pointed to .370 is pretty impressive and up close to the 190.

I concur with the 6.5 vs 7mm at ELR distances.
Did you do the NF shoot over the weekend?
I got one lot of 184s up to 0.378 G7. The current lot I have is 0.373. As you said above the 190s are even higher than that but I never got them to shoot as well unless I drove them fast, which moved me into double based powders and issues I didn't want to deal with. So I stuck with "close".

After last year's issues with scoring at Nightforce, I decided not to go back. Too much frustration for me to justify the expense and effort in prep. We (my wife and I) shot the Mud Springs ELR in OR instead. and my wife won the match BTW! :)
 
I got one lot of 184s up to 0.378 G7. The current lot I have is 0.373. As you said above the 190s are even higher than that but I never got them to shoot as well unless I drove them fast, which moved me into double based powders and issues I didn't want to deal with. So I stuck with "close".

After last year's issues with scoring at Nightforce, I decided not to go back. Too much frustration for me to justify the expense and effort in prep. We (my wife and I) shot the Mud Springs ELR in OR instead. and my wife won the match BTW! :)
They had a different scoring system this time at NF that was much better. but the prize table situation was retarded.

I wanted to do mud springs but had work conflicts
Congrats to the wife!
 
I am working on figuring out my next cartridge. I liked the 7 LRM but the brass selection is very limited and Gunwerks, the promoter, has abandoned it in favor of the 7 PRC which became my next choice.

Somewhere along the way someone said something about looking at heavy for caliber 6.5 (Or it might have been 6 mm) bullets and I had a look. The Berger 6.5 mm, 153.5 LR Hybrid has a BC of 0.365. The Berger 184 F-Open Hybrid, which I would likely use if I go with the 7 PRC, has a G7 BC of 0.365.

I ran trajectory calcs for both at 3,000 MV and the drop, windage, and time of flight were identical out to 2,500 yards, the furthest I would expect to ever shoot.

Am I missing something or would both bullets, if launched at the same MV, be affected equally by the wind and by gravity?
If you intend to shoot that far, you're well into fringe behavior and the simplifications that worked at 1000 yards are breaking down. They can only put so much information on a box of bullets and moving their customers from the G1 to G7 models was challenging enough for the bullet companies.

Those bullets are aggressive enough in design and at 2500 yards you're looking at shooting them out the bottom of the transonic so the G7 model starts to break down.

Using AB Analytics and the CDMs for those bullets, 2500 yards at sea level, 3000 fps:

153.5 Hybrid, 39.2 mils elevation, 5.3 mils 10 mph wind
184 Hybrid, 37.3 mils elevation, 5.0 mils 10 mph wind

You can do similar comparisons with 4DoF for Hornady bullets if you don't have AB or AB doesn't have a CDM for the Hornady bullet.

Given all the other factors that'll be affecting hits at that distance, that's not a huge distinction but little additional problems just keep piling on.

Within a given set of bullet design parameters, bullet weights scale by the cube of caliber. The 153.5 grain 6.5mm scales to a 191 grain 7mm. To drive that 6.5 bullet to 3000 fps will require a larger case than what scales to the 7mm 184 grain at the same speed. It'll take enough 7mm case to scale to driving a 190 to 3000 fps and then a bit more. Pulling a number not entirely out of space, figure maybe 1/3 the barrel life to go to the 6.5.

I was shooting a lot of the 195 EOLs to 2300 yards when they first came out. BC is great, but at that distance BC consistency is the dominant contributor to vertical dispersion. Out of the box, with an 8 twist, the 180s have it all over the 190 and 195s as far as vertical spread beyond 2000 yards. The 190 ATips are a step past that in vertical consistency, but you'll need to keep it in your pants with pressure and know when the throat of a barrel is just about done to use them. I'd expect the 153.5 hybrids to behave like the 190/195 hybrids at that distance.

Running the Sg up to the 1.8-2.1 range helps reduce BC spread. Because you've started at a fairly high performance level and done this comparison at the same speed, the extra twist required to match the 184 Sg with the longer for caliber 6.5 bullet will have enough additional RPM that it'll affect bullet performance towards the end barrel life. Compromise on the Sg to keep the 6.5 rpm in line and it'll show up in vertical at 2500 yards.

Another issue is it takes some rounds down range to develop the fine motor skills and strategies required for a mile and beyond. If you have a strong background reloading for 1K, that'll be a good start. As you head for a mile, recognize that there is enough intrinsic accuracy in the required equipment that endless testing at 100 yards isn't a good way to spend barrel life or select bullets. Bullets should be selected and barrels retired at a mile or more based on vertical. Dumping the heavier bullet for better wind strategy is another good idea. Vertical is the problem. Wind is on you. Vertical is velocity and BC spreads. Take every opportunity to trade 100 fps less for half your SD. Uniform bullet dimensions are only the start of managing BC spread. The condition of the barrel, the pressure you subject the bullets to, and your reloading practices all contribute. Excessively aggressive bullet designs will also bite you.

I think your first plan with the 7LRM and 190s from a 30" barrel in a magnum action was solid. Taking a couple little steps back to the 7PRC and 180/190s will make for better practice time at 1K and a mile. There are a lot more hours in the year when shooting at 1 mile is feasible than 2500 yards.
 
I would look at what the ELR folks are winning matches with at 1 - 1.5 miles. I could be wrong but I'm guessing 308, 338, 375 and 416 do pretty well.
 
Thank you for the wealth of information! It is a lot to chew on. I understood the context of some of it, much of it is new to me.



“If you intend to shoot that far, you're well into fringe behavior and the simplifications that worked at 1000 yards are breaking down.”

I get it.



“if you don't have AB”

I don’t. I have been thinking about getting it. Guess its time.




“To drive that 6.5 bullet to 3000 fps will require a larger case than what scales to the 7mm 184 grain at the same speed.”

So the 6.5 PRC is not going to make 3,000 with the 153.5?



“I was shooting a lot of the 195 EOLs to 2300 yards”

What cartridge?



“If you have a strong background reloading for 1K”

I don’t. The grunt end of reloading, I’ve got. I shoot 300 and 600 yard Varmint Benchrest and studying/learning bench handling and load tuning.



“I think your first plan with the 7LRM and 190s from a 30" barrel in a magnum action was solid.”

I looked again for 7 LRM brass. Gunwerks sells new brass for $4 per. Midway has 100 new cases. I talked to ADG. They have no orders for brass. Gunwerks has once fired 7 LRM for $1.10 per. Hornady still has it but the consensus is that it is not good. As much as I like to cartridge, it is exactly what I was searching for, I am reluctant to get into a dead end cartridge. I’ll have to make do with the 7 PRC.
 

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