Removing Lee FLS die expander ball?

[RemingtonAI]

Ok, So first let me say that I know that there has been a great deal of conversation about this and I have read through a whole lot of different threads related to using the Lee full length sizing die, and weather or not you should remove the bushing or expander ball. However, I still cannot figure out a couple simple questions. The overall goal here is to bump my cases back the recommended .002 for my .308 WIN...nothing too crazy.
Until now I have only been neck sizing, and despite knowing that bumping is the way to go, I continued to neck size because quite simply, I have 3 very accurate loads all worked up that shoot great in my rifle at 600yrds which I shoot regularly. And I instead of working on load development it was nice to work on wind calls and other things. So, now I bit the bullet and changed up the process in order to bump the cases every time for more consistency over the life of the case, and of course use the case more than 5 times.
I am using a Lee Full Length Sizing Die and have it set to bump the shoulder .002 as of right now. It seems like I am getting 2 different issues.
#1, It seems like the pressure I apply on the press arm is giving me more deviation than I expected. Nothing extreme, but it is sort of easy to bump it an extra thou every so often. And I do have a keen ability to be precise with my motion and consistency, something learned from playing classical music. However I am probably lubing the shoulder and once I stop doing that, which is as of now, maybe that will change. Ill have to get back to that.
#2 When I don't put what I believe to be an almost excessive amount of lube on the case there is certainly more friction but it also doesn't seem to bump the shoulder. I can do it multiple times with definitely enough force to bump it and it hardly do anything. What I expect is that upon pulling the case out of the die, the extra friction aids in stretching it back a bit after initially actually bumping it. When I put fresh lube on the case it seems to bump it fine.

Ok, so what I need from you guys is your expert opinion on my game plan from here. I keep reading about removing the expander ball from your full length sizing die, and I'm aware of the arguments of doing so. The only opposition I have seen states that you are left with excessive neck tension. In my case I would be theoretically using the FLS die to bump the shoulder, then using my Lee collet neck sizing die as the second part of a 2 part sizing method. I have read it also aids in reducing brass stress due to the 2 step process which is great but I'm really doing it out of necessity and curiousity. My collet nick sizing die gives me .003 NT, whereas the full length sizer so far with the expander ball gives me closer to .004!

So? 1. Is removing the expander ball and using the FLS die just for bumping, then using my collet neck sizing die to size the neck a sound technique? I realize there are tons of other options but just for the sake of keeping this thread efficient and specific, does this have potential for yielding good results as a technique in general?
2. Am I correct as to why the not so lubed cases seem to not want to bump? Are they getting hung up in the die and pulled back to being longer by the time it is pulled out? It also seems like if I bring the ram up and down more quickly it hangs up less and is more likely to produce more of a bump. Is the solution to just use enough lube so that it does not do this, since it seems like it is a working solution? I am using Lee resizing lube. Also tried Hornady One Shot with similar results.
3. THE GOLDEN QUESTION: How exactly do I remove my full length resizing die's "expander ball"? Google told me to ask someone else, and you guys are them.
And lastly, is there an alternative approach that you might take in addition to or in replace of exploring this option of the 2 step process? Thanks in advance for the advice--Jesse

 

[MNbogboy]

1. My guess is your FLS die does not have a removable collet for the neck and by removing only the expander ball stem alone it will leave the neck diameters way smaller than you want and then on the secondary sizing the NS collet die won't even touch it....A good alternative might be that you add a body die sizing to your process which only bumps the shoulders back and does not touch the neck at all....Then you can continue to use your NS die as before...

2. Whenever FLS or body sizing being consistent with lube will help obtain consistent results...Hornady Unique or Imperial sizing lube are great but the spray ons seem to make it much harder to gauge consistency....I do considerable amount of forming my AIs from longer brass ie: 6.5-.257 Roberts AI from 30-06 brass and I use plenty of Unique just short of "denting" case to extrude these...My theory is you only are using too much when you are making dents...

Another important thing to remember is that when adjusting a die for bump is to use a different piece of fired brass for each adjustment....(learned from experience that adding .002 more three times in a row to the same piece of brass gained nothing then .002 more gives you .008 or .010)..springback during bumping can drive you crazy!...Also annealing may ease this process but also can introduce different sizing neck tension issues....too loose with the collet you ran before...etc...

3. The expander stem in a typical standard Lee sizing die has a 1/2" hex locking collet in the top of the die which holds the one piece expander/decapping pin....There is a 3/4" across the flats area on the upper portion of the die body of which you can hold the die while removing the expander stem lock collet...

Your die may be different from one I am thinking of but maybe this info will help...

Good luck,
Randy

 

[Sheldon N]

Any time you hear about people pulling the expander ball out of their full length sizing die, they are almost certainly using a bushing full length sizing die. They are making a very specific choice about the size of bushing that is right for their brass and measurements, and have purchased a sizing bushing that matches their needs. That allows them to control the amount of neck tension by bushing selection, even if the expander ball is not being used.

Your Lee die is not a bushing die, so it needs to be able to handle all potential brass types (thick or thin). As a result the neck is going to be much smaller than necessary, and it relies on the expander ball to pull the brass back out to the proper neck tension. If you removed the expander ball you might find that you had .010 or even .015 of neck tension.... way too much.

Yes, it's possible that the die is pulling upwards on the neck so hard that it's removing the shoulder bump. Is the upward effort on the press arm significant? If so, that's not good. Are you putting any lube on the inside of the case neck? It probably needs a little bit. I will brush the carbon out of the case neck, then apply a little bit of case lube inside the neck using a Q-tip when I'm using an expander ball. The upstroke effort on the press is almost zero when pulling the ball through. I have the added advantage of using a bushing die with an appropriate bushing, so the expander ball is really only moving the neck maybe .001 to hit final neck tension.

Here's the options I would put forward for you.

1. Keep using your current dies, but refine the process. Don't use too much lube on the outside of the case, just a light coat. Make sure the inside of the case neck is cleaned out with a bristle brush before sizing to remove excess carbon. Apply a small amount of lube inside the case neck before sizing. Not too much, just a very light coat with a Q-tip. Polish up your expander ball with some metal polish to help reduce friction... just a light polishing to take out any imperfections... again, not too much. This should help give you more consistent shoulder bump and reduce the effort on the upstroke during sizing.

2. Scrap your Lee full length die and get a new full length bushing die. I'd recommend the Redding Full Length Type S bushing die, with bushings that measure .001 and .002 smaller than the neck of a loaded round. The world's your oyster at this point. Control tension with varying bushing sizes. Use the expander ball, or don't. You could try a floating carbide expander ball. Best of all, you could try your two step sizing with your Lee Collet die by removing the bushing entirely from the Redding die (so it doesn't touch the neck at all) and control shoulder bump and full length sizing with the Redding die and neck sizing with the Lee Collet die. This is actually a very well regarded approach.

 

[ericbc7]

One rather inexpensive alternative is to buy a Redding Body die for shoulder bumping and continue to use your collet neck die with which you have had success. I think Boyd Allen determined collet sizing then body sizing worked best in terms of lowest run out with this combination (apologies to Boyd if I mis-remembered). This adds a step compared to full length sizing but you don't have to lube inside the neck with the collet die + body die operation.

 

[Sheldon N]

Yes, if you just want to two step size with the Lee Collet die the cheapest way to do it is just the plain body die. A Redding Body die is the same thing as a Redding Full Length Type S bushing die with the bushing removed, at half the cost. The only difference is you can't add a bushing to a body die, so it's got less options.

 

[savagedasher]

Yes, if you just want to two step size with the Lee Collet die the cheapest way to do it is just the plain body die. A Redding Body die is the same thing as a Redding Full Length Type S bushing die with the bushing removed, at half the cost. The only difference is you can't add a bushing to a body die, so it's got less options.

The cutlet die after works best. Larry

 

[gotcha]

Another option you might want to consider is to have the neck of your F/L die honed out. This is more appropriate for neck turned or skim cut brass but has worked for me with higher Quality brass like Lapua with more uniform neck wall thickness.............. Lee will hone your neck for $25.00 allowing you to discard your expander ball. Call Lee and ask for Jim in custom services............... Or you can buy a new die direct from Lee and have them hone it for you............. Forster also offers neck honing services for their F/L dies............... You'll notice a big improvement in ease of sizing (particularly on the down stroke) and a more reliable bump measurement.

 

[timeout]

I am mostly a bushing die user and not familiar with Lee dies, BUT if Lee offers carbide expanders, they may work for you.

 

[RemingtonAI]

Thanks guys for all the great answers! I found an alternative solution that I am going to try out downrange this weekend, seems to work so far. I removed the decapping assembly from my FLS die which gives me a very consistent bump now. Because the neck was then sized too small to fit over the mandrel in my Lee collet die, I put a taper on the mandrel to ease the transition. I removed the mandrel and put it in the chuck of a drill. Then used my mini Dremel drill press with a polishing wheel to smooth the edge of the mandrel while it was spinning in the chuck. It came out very smooth and the cases now are able to slide over the mandrel of the collet neck die to decap and size the neck. So, the inconsistencies in shoulder bump are solved and my neck tension is that of my neck sizing die, .002
Hopefully everything checks out in the accuracy department this Saturday. Thanks again for all of your expert advice. Jesse

 

[Sheldon N]

Sounds like a good workaround. Let us know how it shoots!

With that route the one thing you could look into is having Lee hone out the neck of the die, as mentioned above. That would help reduce the amount you are working the case neck and extend the life of the brass a bit. Annealing would be another good thing to do if you ran into any issues with split necks.