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Rem. 700 .308 VTR?? any good?
- Thread starter TresMon
- Start date
You told him wrong. The 308 Win version will handle up to 165 gr bullets very, very well. They have a significant enough accuracy profile that Remington has applied for a patent. They are not benchrest quality, but for a mass produced factory gun, they are not bad at all.
Why would you make a statement like "all Remington barrels are junk"? That's like saying everyone from Tennessee is an inbred hick. It's a generalization that just isn't true. I have seen a factory LTR consistently shoot under a quarter inch with Black Hills match. I have a sporter weight 30-06 that shoots around an inch with its favorite handloads. I also own a 600 that shoots under an inch with a variety of ammo all day long, even when the barrel is hot. I wouldn't call them "junk".
Why would you make a statement like "all Remington barrels are junk"? That's like saying everyone from Tennessee is an inbred hick. It's a generalization that just isn't true. I have seen a factory LTR consistently shoot under a quarter inch with Black Hills match. I have a sporter weight 30-06 that shoots around an inch with its favorite handloads. I also own a 600 that shoots under an inch with a variety of ammo all day long, even when the barrel is hot. I wouldn't call them "junk".
Well I've had good luck with 168's and 175 MK. I love the gun it shoots great for a factory rifle. Killing steel out to 1000yds. I also added a Seekins Precision detachable mag. system, Click Here ) now I can seat the bullets out were they need to be.
RD
RD
I had one that had bad stress in the barrel. It would shoot a left to right group 6-7in that got worse the more you shot. Not sayin that rems are bad or anything like that, dont want to offend anyone from Tennessee. But i think that your friend would be better off with a conventional barreled rifle.
Ollie
Ollie
Tres,
I think you are doing the right thing trying to talk your bud out of dropping major coin for a factory rifle. Even the guys bragging on these Rems put in the qualifier "shoots great.....for a factory rifle". The first time I ever shot a good custom bbl I was cured of ever again spending money for a factory bbl.
Honest to god, the first words out of my mouth after shooting the second shot through that first [used !!!] custom bbl were "There is NO WAY I missed the WHOLE damm target!!!!" We then noticed that the hole was not quite round anymore. That first group was under a 1/2" while fire forming the brass and the bullets not seated to the bbls liking.
I think you are doing the right thing trying to talk your bud out of dropping major coin for a factory rifle. Even the guys bragging on these Rems put in the qualifier "shoots great.....for a factory rifle". The first time I ever shot a good custom bbl I was cured of ever again spending money for a factory bbl.
Honest to god, the first words out of my mouth after shooting the second shot through that first [used !!!] custom bbl were "There is NO WAY I missed the WHOLE damm target!!!!" We then noticed that the hole was not quite round anymore. That first group was under a 1/2" while fire forming the brass and the bullets not seated to the bbls liking.
if you're want a factory 308, you can not go wrong with a Remington 700 SS 5R. i just got one two weeks ago and it shoots under 1/2 minute all day from 100-700 yds. i just shot a 3 inch group,3 shots) at 700 two days ago. have not had a chance to go out farther yet.
Oh, and that is with Federal Gold Medal 175s
this kind of accuracy is the norm for this gun as many others have reported the same
Oh, and that is with Federal Gold Medal 175s
this kind of accuracy is the norm for this gun as many others have reported the same
Rayjay couldn't agree with you more. My first custom was a Rem 7oo 22-250 that wouldn't group under 2" no matter what I did.
Sent it off to Pete Pieper in Hempstead Texas.
It came back fully blueprinted wearing a 24" Hart barrel with a muzzle brake, Jewel trigger and a Mcmillan Hunter/BR stock.
Incredible fit and finish. Amazingly accurate. Several of my buddies have had customs built after handling this rifle. You just cannot believe the difference until you have handled a rifle that was custom built as opposed to massed produced.
Sent it off to Pete Pieper in Hempstead Texas.
It came back fully blueprinted wearing a 24" Hart barrel with a muzzle brake, Jewel trigger and a Mcmillan Hunter/BR stock.
Incredible fit and finish. Amazingly accurate. Several of my buddies have had customs built after handling this rifle. You just cannot believe the difference until you have handled a rifle that was custom built as opposed to massed produced.
Well, earlier this year I wanted something in .308 to have something to plink with in the .308 class at the matches that I can make, to double the amount of shooting given increased travel costs. I looked at what was hanging on the walls since with my work/travel schedule I don't like to wait on ordering something. Had a look at the triangular barreled job but decided it was a bit too goofy and mainly a marketing ploy and settled on a new 700P for less money.
This thing flat shoots with a 155 Scenar and a bunch of RL-15 behind it, and to be honest it would take a really good custom barrel,in similar profile) to shoot any better. It's well under a 1/2 moa rifle. Of course the scope still cost more than the rifle,12-42 Nightforce). The only fly in the ointment really is the somewhat overly generous chamber which IMO overworks the brass. OK, I'll admit that I don't like the palm swell either but I can work with it.
A 1-12 twist will stabilize 168s, 175s and even bullets in the 190 gr weight class. I don't know who started that complete B.S. about needing a 1-10 or 1-11 to stabilize 175s but it's a load of B.S.
Regarding the 5R, everyone claims it shoots better than the standard groove barrel but from what I've seen locally, not. At least no one had outshot me with one informally at the range. The one factory rifle that has done best against my rig in such circumstances is one of the McMillan stocked Savage FPs or whatever they are called, the tactical flavor.
And here's someting to keep in mind. Once you get past the point blank range, it's the shooter not the rifle that starts to matter most. In other words if you have a rifle that will print 1/2 moa at 100, if you can't get it inside 1 moa at 600 it's the shooter not the rifle. 1,000, that's another story because there are lots of good 600 yard loads that won't hold up at 1,000.
This thing flat shoots with a 155 Scenar and a bunch of RL-15 behind it, and to be honest it would take a really good custom barrel,in similar profile) to shoot any better. It's well under a 1/2 moa rifle. Of course the scope still cost more than the rifle,12-42 Nightforce). The only fly in the ointment really is the somewhat overly generous chamber which IMO overworks the brass. OK, I'll admit that I don't like the palm swell either but I can work with it.
A 1-12 twist will stabilize 168s, 175s and even bullets in the 190 gr weight class. I don't know who started that complete B.S. about needing a 1-10 or 1-11 to stabilize 175s but it's a load of B.S.
Regarding the 5R, everyone claims it shoots better than the standard groove barrel but from what I've seen locally, not. At least no one had outshot me with one informally at the range. The one factory rifle that has done best against my rig in such circumstances is one of the McMillan stocked Savage FPs or whatever they are called, the tactical flavor.
And here's someting to keep in mind. Once you get past the point blank range, it's the shooter not the rifle that starts to matter most. In other words if you have a rifle that will print 1/2 moa at 100, if you can't get it inside 1 moa at 600 it's the shooter not the rifle. 1,000, that's another story because there are lots of good 600 yard loads that won't hold up at 1,000.
Rust if you have a factory rifle that will shoot well under .5 inch, you have an exception not the norm.
I do not care how good of a marksmen you are, at any distance,if you do not have an exceptional firearm you are not going to be very competitive with the outstanding guns or the or the outstanding shooters that are on firing lines at todays matches.
My point is that when I was shooting my 22-250 and getting 2" groups people thought, man this guy can't shoot very well, the same gun customized will shoot .2's at 100 yards and now everyone thinks, this guy is good. Whats different, the gun is.
I do not care how good of a marksmen you are, at any distance,if you do not have an exceptional firearm you are not going to be very competitive with the outstanding guns or the or the outstanding shooters that are on firing lines at todays matches.
My point is that when I was shooting my 22-250 and getting 2" groups people thought, man this guy can't shoot very well, the same gun customized will shoot .2's at 100 yards and now everyone thinks, this guy is good. Whats different, the gun is.
first of all it starts with a good load for the rifel.then the shooter.put two good products together and you get good results.second of all the 5r is a good rifel.i can say this because my friend can punch out a group at 100 with a .190 group. and a 1.500 at 500 with his 5r.third is that there is no barrel going to the scrap yard.i mean no gun company will trash one,you see you get what you pay for.when you go to wal-mart,pawn shop or even a gun dealer that doesn't sell that much you may end up with one of the bad ones.trust me i did and i changed it to a better rifel putting a shilen on the action.its just not smart for remingthon to put all that time and money to wast.would you if you had a million dollar company?lets face it we are all human and when it comes to money it just does things too us that we will all some day hate about ourselves.
jb - To be honest, I have a couple of factory rifles that will consistantly print 1/2 moa or better. Some have taken a bit more work to correct things like; insuring that the barrel was in fact free floated, skim bedding to prevent distortion of the receiver when torquing it into the bedding block,90s Remingtons had a problem that way), getting a scope mounted correctly where the receiver mount holes were not in line, and other fit and finish issues. Load development has ranged from dead simple to what powder/primer/bullet combination have I NOT tried yet.
I think that unless there is some gross physical defect, most reasonable quality heavier barrel contoured factory rifles should print 1 moa with a load matched to the rifle.
But it's still a big step up from the 1/2 moa of a tuned factory rifle to one of my match rifles. Some folks have asked how I manage to shoot that well at 1,000,when I don't go brain dead a screw up massively and I have) and I just tell them it's easy, I just point and shoot. Drives a couple of guys nuts. In actuality it took three years and three barrels to get what I considered a really rock solid win,ie, won by a good margin against quality competition with good scores themselves). Rifle was plenty accurate, learning to shoot it was another story.
I think that unless there is some gross physical defect, most reasonable quality heavier barrel contoured factory rifles should print 1 moa with a load matched to the rifle.
But it's still a big step up from the 1/2 moa of a tuned factory rifle to one of my match rifles. Some folks have asked how I manage to shoot that well at 1,000,when I don't go brain dead a screw up massively and I have) and I just tell them it's easy, I just point and shoot. Drives a couple of guys nuts. In actuality it took three years and three barrels to get what I considered a really rock solid win,ie, won by a good margin against quality competition with good scores themselves). Rifle was plenty accurate, learning to shoot it was another story.
Johnboy - a few questions.
Does that 5R print .190",or at least in the .2s) every trip to the range or is that the best group. Is that a five shot group. Is the 1.5" group,or at least around 2") at 600 doable every time out or is that best group. Is it a five shot group.
Reason I ask is a single best group is not an accurate indicator of just how accurate a rifle is, the aggragate of all the groups fired is. I've got a couple of hunting rifles, classics that are too valuable to mess with, they shoot right around 1.5 moa consistantly. However the law of averages occasionally kicks in and thus both of them have printed the very occasional group at 1/2 moa. This does not make them 1/2 moa rifles though because they will not consistantly print 1/2 moa groups.
So add up about twenty or thirty five shot groups or so and figure the aggregate grouping and that will tell what the actual accuracy of the rifle really is.
Reason I ask is in forty years I have NEVER seen a factory rifle that would agg in the teens at 100. A very very few would maybe run around .3s-.4s,a very nice Cooper for one "not mine", an old Sako varminter "not mine", and an old Browning Hi Power varminter "mine" from back when Sako made the actions for Browning). On a good day they would squeeze out a few tighter groups, but not on a consistant basis. So they remain just under 1/2 moa rifles.
My plain old 700P has printed a few tight bugholes, but it is not a 1/4 moa rifle becasue I can't expect the bughole every time, it averages at or a shade under 1/2 moa.
Does that 5R print .190",or at least in the .2s) every trip to the range or is that the best group. Is that a five shot group. Is the 1.5" group,or at least around 2") at 600 doable every time out or is that best group. Is it a five shot group.
Reason I ask is a single best group is not an accurate indicator of just how accurate a rifle is, the aggragate of all the groups fired is. I've got a couple of hunting rifles, classics that are too valuable to mess with, they shoot right around 1.5 moa consistantly. However the law of averages occasionally kicks in and thus both of them have printed the very occasional group at 1/2 moa. This does not make them 1/2 moa rifles though because they will not consistantly print 1/2 moa groups.
So add up about twenty or thirty five shot groups or so and figure the aggregate grouping and that will tell what the actual accuracy of the rifle really is.
Reason I ask is in forty years I have NEVER seen a factory rifle that would agg in the teens at 100. A very very few would maybe run around .3s-.4s,a very nice Cooper for one "not mine", an old Sako varminter "not mine", and an old Browning Hi Power varminter "mine" from back when Sako made the actions for Browning). On a good day they would squeeze out a few tighter groups, but not on a consistant basis. So they remain just under 1/2 moa rifles.
My plain old 700P has printed a few tight bugholes, but it is not a 1/4 moa rifle becasue I can't expect the bughole every time, it averages at or a shade under 1/2 moa.
Rust I have had 15 or so new rifles and exactly 1 would shoot under 1" at 100 yards absolutely bone stock. It is an Ruger M77 in 270 caliber. This rifle is absolutely unique, I set the scope on this gun in 1981 and have never moved the crosshairs. It shoots everything I feed it to the same point of aim +/- 1/2".
All of the guns in my safe will shoot sub MOA but they have all had something done to them except that old Ruger. I haven't burned a barrel out on any gun I have ever owned, I shoot an occasional egg type shoot or informal competitions with friends.
When I was in the service years ago I thought I was a crackerjack shot. Then I went to and competed in a shoot at the old Ft. Wolters range west of Ft.Worth, Texas and I can tell you I was humbled really quick. I competed for a few years in the interservice matches and the learning curve was steep but rewarding. Knowing what it takes to really put a good set of groups together, I am always amazed by the groups that our top shooters turn in.
I believe one good group is probably a fluke, albeit fun to brag about. It's when a rifle will agg. very well consistently when you truly have something to crow about.
A short story: A friend and I used to do some shooting in a guys cow pasture. We drove in one day and unloaded our gear and got ready to walk down to the creek and a crow landed on the sand road at 463 long steps away. My friend throws his rifle to his shoulder and takes a snap shot offhand and drills this crow dead center nothing but feathers in the air and an amazed looks on our faces. This guy was an ok shot and we have tried to recreate this shot several times using 2 liter pop bottles filled with water and we have not been able to duplicate the hit, we have probably burned a thousand rounds trying this.
Moral of the story is even though we haven't been able to do it again he still gets braggin rights.
Good luck to you in your future shoots.
All of the guns in my safe will shoot sub MOA but they have all had something done to them except that old Ruger. I haven't burned a barrel out on any gun I have ever owned, I shoot an occasional egg type shoot or informal competitions with friends.
When I was in the service years ago I thought I was a crackerjack shot. Then I went to and competed in a shoot at the old Ft. Wolters range west of Ft.Worth, Texas and I can tell you I was humbled really quick. I competed for a few years in the interservice matches and the learning curve was steep but rewarding. Knowing what it takes to really put a good set of groups together, I am always amazed by the groups that our top shooters turn in.
I believe one good group is probably a fluke, albeit fun to brag about. It's when a rifle will agg. very well consistently when you truly have something to crow about.
A short story: A friend and I used to do some shooting in a guys cow pasture. We drove in one day and unloaded our gear and got ready to walk down to the creek and a crow landed on the sand road at 463 long steps away. My friend throws his rifle to his shoulder and takes a snap shot offhand and drills this crow dead center nothing but feathers in the air and an amazed looks on our faces. This guy was an ok shot and we have tried to recreate this shot several times using 2 liter pop bottles filled with water and we have not been able to duplicate the hit, we have probably burned a thousand rounds trying this.
Moral of the story is even though we haven't been able to do it again he still gets braggin rights.
Good luck to you in your future shoots.
jb - I'll admit I've only had one out of the box factory rifle,untouched and untuned) that would shoot well into the sub-moa range with out of the box factory ammo and that was a 700 VS-SF in .223 which loved Ballistic Silvertip 40 gr ammunition. Held moa out to 300 if the wind was still. Best handloads still shot better though.
The 700P .308 might shot well with factory ammo, but it's never seen anything but handloads.
The 700P .308 might shot well with factory ammo, but it's never seen anything but handloads.
To answer the question at hand, yes the R700 .308 VTR is a good gun. I have had mine for some time now, and i love it.
Now I am not a pro or any kind of competitive shooter but i do hunt some and i shoot targets for fun. My VTR is factory except a 3-9x40 scope and a Harrison bi pod. I shoot with 180gr federal ammunition and i can consistently fire a grouping of 3/4" at 600yrds,5 shots). a couple of days ago i pushed my skill and the gun and tried a 800yrd target. after some calibration and about 2 hours, i had groupings just under 2",also 5 shots) and in my book that is awesome, not to mention i don't have a stand or a bench, just the ground or in some cases the bed of a truck.
In all the gun has preformed flawlessly for me, and the barrel is awesome it takes a lot of shooting to get that thing hot and the muzzle brake works like a charm. I would give the gun 4 of 5 stars, mainly b/c if i give something 5 of 5 it has to prove its self over time as a good gun, so in the future this may get 5 of 5 from me.
hope that helped
Now I am not a pro or any kind of competitive shooter but i do hunt some and i shoot targets for fun. My VTR is factory except a 3-9x40 scope and a Harrison bi pod. I shoot with 180gr federal ammunition and i can consistently fire a grouping of 3/4" at 600yrds,5 shots). a couple of days ago i pushed my skill and the gun and tried a 800yrd target. after some calibration and about 2 hours, i had groupings just under 2",also 5 shots) and in my book that is awesome, not to mention i don't have a stand or a bench, just the ground or in some cases the bed of a truck.
In all the gun has preformed flawlessly for me, and the barrel is awesome it takes a lot of shooting to get that thing hot and the muzzle brake works like a charm. I would give the gun 4 of 5 stars, mainly b/c if i give something 5 of 5 it has to prove its self over time as a good gun, so in the future this may get 5 of 5 from me.
hope that helped
Well all I do in my free time is shooting really, and having my brother,who was a USMC sniper for quite some time as my teacher and spotter and the fact I have bin shooting before I was knee high to a rabbit helps a lot.
When my brother told me what king of grouping I had. I thought he was pulling my leg, but shure enough all day that was my average grouping. The gun stayed on target and there where a few that strayed but not too bad, I bet if I had a more powerful scope and a custom barrel I could shoot 1" groups at 800yds no problem with that gun, I love it. Don't forget it took 2 hours of trial and error to sight it in before I started to soot that grouping at 800yds and it was a calm no wind kind of day it was cool outside with avg. moisture in the air, so it was the perfect time to shoot.
When my brother told me what king of grouping I had. I thought he was pulling my leg, but shure enough all day that was my average grouping. The gun stayed on target and there where a few that strayed but not too bad, I bet if I had a more powerful scope and a custom barrel I could shoot 1" groups at 800yds no problem with that gun, I love it. Don't forget it took 2 hours of trial and error to sight it in before I started to soot that grouping at 800yds and it was a calm no wind kind of day it was cool outside with avg. moisture in the air, so it was the perfect time to shoot.
hello,to answer Rusts question,yes my friend shoots 1.5 at 500 all the time.at the most of it his bad day is around 2' at 500.and thats with 700 rounds down the tube.i,m telling ya the goverment spent too much money for the rifel not to shoot.it would have to be a bad mistake on rem. to let a rifel in the 5-r to be a bad one i would think.they only make around 200-500 of these rifels a year depending on the sales of each last year.for 2009 they are chambering them in 223,and 300wm.i just got one in 223 with 1:9 twist and it shot a .4 something with the 3rd 5 shot group.and that was good for still brakeing in the barrel.all around i think that the 5-rs are a good buy for the rifel that they are too me anyway.but thats just my opinion.i,m not a pro by no means,i just like too shoot.and when my friend got his 5-r i just had too have one for myself after he told me the results he was getting.sorry if i have caused any hard feelings.just wanted to share my opinion on the subject.around here 1.5 is darn good for us.cause i can't afford the custom jobs,my wife would end my life if i spent that kind of money a rifel.
Johnboy
Johnboy
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