Reloading process questions

[kc7zdm]

Hi Folks!
I'm just getting my toes in the water in Service Rifle at the tender age of almost 58. I've got most of the reloading equipment I think I need, and have read the loading manuals pretty thoroughly. I discovered Service Rifle after I bought my first AR-15 on a whim and promptly discovered that it was the wrong rifle for SR! (It's a DPMS Panther 16" carbine). Oh well, live and learn, and darn, had to buy another rifle!

My brand new Rock River NM AR-15 A2 rifle just arrived after a 6 month wait and now I'm ready to start reloading for it. I'm very pleased with it. It's got a heavy stainless match barrel with Wylde chamber, 20" and 1:8 twist. So far I've only shot it once to get it close to zeroed, but only had 55 gr ammo ready to shoot.

I have some questions about the load development process. I've read the manuals, but would appreciate some feedback.

I'm unclear about the difference in load data between 223 Rem and 5.56. Do I use the 223 data or will that load be under-power? Would it be safe?

Should I load just 10 at a time, shoot, examine the brass and load again? So far the brass I have is some once-fired Hornady .223 Rem, and a bunch of once-fired Lake City brass, both .223 and 5.56.

While developing a load, should I shoot from the bench? Normally I would shoot from position, and my sight picture is somewhat different from the bench vs. prone, etc.

If shooting from the bench, how should the rifle be supported? The range provides the Hornady 'triangle' rests you can flip to the desired height. Those only offer one point of contact on the handguard, and the rifle is somewhat prone to slipping sideways.

Does it make any difference what range I shoot at? 25 yards vs 50 yards, vs. 75 yards vs. 100 yards vs. 200 yards? Those are the intervals that are easily available to me. The closest highpower range to me s about an hour away and not really available unless the club is shooting a practice match.

I feel pretty conservative, and will start at the minimum load data. I'm having trouble finding powder, so I have acquired a mixed lot; 4 1lb bottles of Accurate 2200, one of 2460, and 1 of Varget. Likewise with primers. I have 100 Winchester SR, and 1000 CCI SR (I made sure they were not for magnum loads). I'd like to standardize on a powder but it's hard right now because it's so hard to come by. Any recommendations for sources, etc. would also be very helpful!

I've loaded and shot 1 batch of 50 of 55 gr Hornady BTHP using the 2460 (the first rifle powder I was able to acquire) and they all performed well in the carbine. Didn't want to really do too much loading for that rifle as I have plenty of 55 grain rounds for that and my interest is in loading for match.

Having loaded shotshells for years, the primer and wad always made a big difference and one should never deviate from the chart with respect to components.

Rifle reloading seems to be different as the primers are not listed with the powder, nor is the brass. I want to do this right, so any feedback about process would be much appreciated. Having a gun blow up would really ruin my day, not to mention the gun so I want to go about this the right way. IMHO, safety trumps everything.

Thanks for any feedback y'all may have!

 

[CatShooter]

There is NO difference - you are shooting a 223 - use 223 loading data.

 

[stool]

ACTUALLY CAT is wrong this time.
most ar rifles are chambered in 5.56....making is safe to shoot both 5.56 and 223 rem ammo.
while there is a difference it is small. basically all ammo sold in the usa is loaded to be safe in all commercial ar's .

there is a diff in the chamber between spec 5.56 and saami 223.
your wylde chamber is neither of the above. it is a compromise competition chamber to allow one to shoot mag fed ammo and still single load ammo that is longer than mag length...sorta required for competition at 600 yds

There is NO difference - you are shooting a 223 - use 223 loading data.

 

[JRS]

The OP asked about load data. Period.

Get your head out of your stool… stool.

 

[stool]

go to where they speak your discipline..
go to us long range and select match from the forums button
(do a google search)

 

[stool]

sorry i missed YOUR LOAD DATA in your post.

The OP asked about load data. Period.

Get your head out of your stool… stool.

 

[Cort]

My view on your questions are:

1. The Wylde chamber is safe with both .223 and 5.56 loading so I would load using data that matched the case; .223 data with .223 cases and 5.56 data with 5.56 cases.

2. The load a few and test is always a good plan during early development. There are fewer cartridges to disassemble if the load doesn't work. I commonly load 20 at a time when testing but there is nothing wrong with loading 10.

3. When testing a new load, I always shoot from the bench with a good rest and a good rear bag. Once I have the load very close to final, I then test in position for the game that I am loading for.

4. The distance for testing is a function of firearm and the game that you are playing. I usually test pistols at 25 and then 50 yards; I test center-fire rifles at 100 and then at longer distances until I reach the maximum distance for the game that I plan to play. Read Erik Cortina's thread on load development at 100 yards.

5. With rifles, I start with the minimum starting load listed in reliable reloading tables (or, at least, 10% under maximum listed load). I then modify the load in a methodical manner until I find the load my rifle likes. Brass manufacturer, powder selection, powder charge, bullet, bullet seating depth and primer selection all affect the performance of your rifle. Methodically varying the combination of components is how one develops an acceptable level of accuracy. The age of your brass, the number of times the brass is fired, whether the brass has been annealed, and sizing (neck only or full length) also affect accuracy. Your rifle will tell you what it likes. What works for one rifle is not necessarily something that will work with another rifle of the same caliber and configuration.

I hope I have answered your questions. Please ask more; there are lots of very experienced shooters and reloaders on this site. They will help you as you gain more experience. I cannot over emphasize the importance of safe reloading practices (but then you already understand that).

Cort

 

[SS427]

Sierra list different load data for a bolt gun and AR-15s. Might want to check that out...free downloads off the .223 info page on this website.

If you can load at the range load three at a time for load development. If you have to load at home, I would load up at least 25 rounds with different bullets and/or load charges, and test three shoot groups to start with.

I would develop loads off a bench and stable rest at 100 yards. POI might change when you go to off hand, but for the most part accuracy should be the same.

Varget powder is my favorite for shooting large volume of .223 at sage rats. Accuracy has been very good in all my .223s and burns fairly clean. Should work just as good in an AR, but I don't shoot one so I can't say for sure.

 

[TheOtherZilla]

Out of the powders you listed, I suspect Varget will get you the best accuracy. That said my particular AR also likes TAC, W748 and Benchmark as well. Personally I shoot 5 shot groups at 100 yds for development, but at times I shoot 3.. When I find a load that seems to group I load up 10 and shoot again.. If accuracy seems OK I then try going up and down 1/2 grain at a time and see what that does..

I use the Sierra AR data, unless a powder isn't listed..

 

[CatShooter]

Sierra list different load data for a bolt gun and AR-15s.

This not because the AR needs different data, it is because ANY TWO GUNS need different data - that is why anyone with their brains connected, drops 10% and works up, reguardless of the source of the data.

So it makes NO difference whether you start with Sierra's 223 data, or AR data, or Speer, or any other - drop 10% and work up - it makes NO DIFFERENCE who's data you use.

 

[kc7zdm]

Thanks, Cort and all those who responded!

#Cort, your reply confirmed for me what common sense was already telling me. Some things are counter-intuitive though so I put a lot of stock in your answer. Stool is right, I already knew that the Wylde chamber is a compromise competition chamber and is safe for .223 and 5.56; what I didn't know was whether there was much difference in load data between the .223 and 5.56 brass. I keep those segregated from each other, BTW.

I take your point too about being methodical between varying components. I will always start at minimums and work my way up from there. Question on that: how much to add to a load at a time, for instance .5 grain or .1 grain or does it depend on how close to the max load you're getting? I'd guess that if I saw accuracy decline then I'd subtract a 10th at a time.

I have SMK 80 grain bullets on order through Midway (due in June) and have Hornady 75 BTHP Match and SMK 69 grain on hand, so I guess I'll start with those loaded to standard mag length.

I think I'll start at 100 yards and go from there. I can see bullet holes at 100 yards with my spotting scope, can't see them at 200. (I'm shooting SR, so iron sights). I'm guessing accuracy, e.g. actually hitting the target bull is less important than shooting small groups (and then moving them to the target) as long as one is consistent.

I shot a practice match a little over a year ago with the carbine, and at 600 yards with 16" 1:9 twist barrel, newbie, and 55 grain factory ammo, the best I can say is that I was mostly on the paper. I'm expecting much better results with this rifle. I also attended an Appleseed event last September and earned my rifleman patch. Learned a lot! I've shot handguns and shotguns (trap, skeet, and sporting clays) for years but am relatively new to (serious) rifle shooting. Lots to learn, and I'm having fun!

I had seen Erik Cortina's article about load development when I was checking out this forum. Makes sense. Does anyone know where he got those targets? Not sure I could see those at 200 yards with iron sights, but I can use sticky dots too.

I saw something on this forum too yesterday about using an overall length gauge (or rather, NOT using same) with an AR so that one won't have to get other competitors mad by having to reshoot alibis. Any thoughts on that? I haven't taken the measurement yet on this new rifle. The loading manuals were talking about loading so the bullet chambers 1/1000th off the lands. The post seemed to indicate that's not the best idea with a gas gun like the AR.

Thanks, again guys! I look forward to 'chatting' with y'all often!

 

[SS427]

Sierra list different load data for a bolt gun and AR-15s.

This not because the AR needs different data, it is because ANY TWO GUNS need different data - that is why anyone with their brains connected, drops 10% and works up, reguardless of the source of the data.

So it makes NO difference whether you start with Sierra's 223 data, or AR data, or Speer, or any other - drop 10% and work up - it makes NO DIFFERENCE who's data you use.

Sierra seems to think so. I place my trust in their opinion.

 

[stool]

ok..lets take your eyes( and the iron sights) out of the equation...
get a decent scope and work up the loads with the scope.
at 100yd even a 3-9x will do. get a carry handle mount, and keep it tight.
there are expensive mounts that work, and cheap ones too.
do not buy a "u" shaped mount as the rings may collapse the top of the mount.
the leapers utg should work.

the ARMS mount works but not cheap.

you do not need to wring the last nats azz out of accuracy...anything that is sub 1" should work till you get towards the top.

 

[Mikey_P]

I think I'll start at 100 yards and go from there. I can see bullet holes at 100 yards with my spotting scope, can't see them at 200. (I'm shooting SR, so iron sights).

Agreed kc7zdm, seeing .22 cal bullet holes on a black bull can be tough. For sighting in irons at 200 & 300 yds, I place an 8" dia Shoot 'n See-type target (I use Caldwell "Orange Peel") inside the black bull. Makes life a little easier...

Mike

 

[stool]

ohh and for load work up you do not need to use a black bullseye...get a std sighting target....black or orange on buff...easy to see holes. just go to a decent paper shop( staples etc ) and buy card stock put a black or orange dot in the center and go shoot.

 

[Webster]

Go to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington
This will tell you a lot about 223 & 5.56.

Wylde info”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Wylde

 

[Cort]

5.56 cases have different internal volume than most .223 cases so pressures are different with the same powder and bullet. You always want to start over (or at least reduce the charge) when you change any component of your load.

The amount of change in powder charge between trial loads depends on how much powder I am playing with and where I am in the development process. A hot charge of Bullseye in a .45ACP gets .1 grain change where a light charge of Varget in a .223 might get .5 (or even a full 1) grain change.

There is no set answer to the development process. Go slow, especially at first, and stop at the first sign of high pressure. Read the thread on OCW load development. It gives good advice on the load development process. I, personally, like a load that is "low" pressure for the cartridge. It leaves room for external conditions to be unfavorable and still have a safe time at the range.

Cort

 

[C. Collins]

Okay......so here are my thoughts. Its service rifle so, get rid of the 50 and 55 gr. pills. Go get yourself some 69 or 75/77 for 200 and 300 yard. Next get some 80 grainers for 600 yards. Many of the guys I shoot with use R15, I prefer varget. When they are available pick one of those two powders. I currently shoot 24 gr. of Varget with the 69 and the 80 gr. bullets. Some guys like hotter loads, I do not. If you can, purchase some LC brass. The rest of it is trigger time in service rifle.

 

[kc7zdm]

Thanks, everyone for the great ideas! I appreciate the suggestions. Looks like I have some work to do!

Cheers!