Reloading Misfire

[crockersmith]

I have reloaded .223 for my Savage 12LRPV for the last year without any problems. I just purchased a Taurus Millenium pitsol in 45ACP. I fired 40 factory rounds through it and it worked flawlessly. I reloaded that brass and yesterday fired ten rounds without incident. However, the second magazine misfired after firing three rounds. When I say "misfire" I mean catastrophic misfire. The plastic grip cracked, the slide flew twenty feet behind me and the magazine dropped to the ground. I was in shock standing there holding nothing but a cracked plastic grip and I consider myself extremely fortunate to have only gotten a small cut on my trigger finger and a little swelling in my hand.
After inspecting the slide/barrel/chamber there was a fired casing remaining which had exploded sideways out through the ejector port which expanded and bent the entire component. In other words, I need a new gun.
A friend said I probably double loaded a round, which I have never done before but there seems to be no other explanation since the gun has an excellent reputation. This is making me question my reloading abilities and confidence and I'm wondering if I should just stick to factory ammo. Anyone have any other theories as to what could have happened?

 

[Kenny474]

When dealing with pistol rounds it's much easier to double charge a round than it is a rifle. they use small amounts of fast burning powder, usually giving only a small margin of error. The 45ACP is a low pressure round and has a lot of case capacity, making it much easier to get a double charge than a smaller round.

Honestly, it sounds about right to me. It's real easy to throw a little too much powder when only dealing with a few grains. If you don't mind me asking, what are you using for a press, how is the powder measured, and what is the load? I have an identical pistol with about 2,000 flawless reloads through it. It has never given me so mach as a hiccup, never mind something to this extent. I trust it enough that my girl has it with her nearly 24/7.

Or, the other likely scenario is you had a squib, didn't notice and fired again. A squib is a round with little or no powder, and usually lodges the bullet firmly in the barrel. If another round is fired, disaster is the result.

I have had 2 Millennium's, both in 45ACP, and never had an issue. I have never heard of such an issue without an ammo problem. It's not to say you are 100% to blame, as these things do happen even with perfect ammo. It could have just been a bad case, as they do happen as well. A little head separation in a plastic pistol is a recipe for disaster.

Post some load specs and I will try and help. I will call a few friends who are more into pistols and see if they have any thoughts as well.

Just don't get discouraged. This stuff happens. Learn from it.

 

[Kenny474]

After thought. If you didn't crimp the bullet firmly, it probably got shoved inside the case and caused pressures to spike, causing the failure. Crimp is very important in a pistol for that very reason.

 

[crockersmith]

Thanks for your info Kenny474 . I am loading 6 grns of Ramshot Zip with CCI #300 primers and Hornady 230 grn. lead bullets. And in this case, once fired brass. I have fairly new equipment : Lyman press, 1000XP scale and Lee carbide 3 die set.
I have been told that the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die is a good addition also.

 

[effendude]

Have you checked the reloads for proper length? 45ACP rounds head space off the case mouth. I suspect the reloads were too long, even by a small amount, and the round fired without the action safely being locked up. This is especially easily to do with lead semi-wadcutter bullets that have a flat, perpendicular wad-cutter section.

COAL is less important than length to headspace. Many vendors sell load checking blocks you insert the loaded rounds into to check for proper headspace length. I'm sure this was your problem.
Scott

 

[crockersmith]

Thanks effendude. I have not checked headspace but I will certainly do that. I just measured COL of the remaining unfired rounds that were in the actual magazine when the mishap occurred. They are at about 1.235 while the rounds not put in the magazine were about 1.255. Is this enough to cause a problem? The rounds must be compressing when I put them in the magazine.

 

[Kenny474]

You need to measure case length. It should be around .898" long. Not sure of max, as I am moving and all my stuff is packed away, notes included. Just going by memory.

My Millennium won't fire until the slide is locked forward. I just tried several times. Pin won't fall until the slide locks forward all the way. Even shimmed .010 it won't fall. Yours may have still fired on an open chamber, definite possibility. Though I don't see once fired brass growing that much, it's still a possibility.

 

[zedsdead]

I'm far from an expert in this area, but unless the barrel was bulged and/or badly split it was probably a double charge. I've seen a few after-the-fact squib loads and the barrel is always devastated.

I've had a squib load myself but was extremely lucky. The bullet did not make it far enough down the barrel to allow the next round to fully chamber. I pulled the trigger but nothing happened. If the bullet had gone another .250 down the barrel I might have been typing this with one hand on a braille computer.

I load almost all my pistol ammo on a Dillon 550. I now religiously eye every charged case before I seat a bullet. One thing to try is to pick a slow enough powder that a double charge will overflow or nearly overflow the case until you get your confidence back. It makes it easier to spot both over charged and squib loaded cases.

Hope this helps.

Jason

 

[fdshuster]

crockersmith: I'm with the double charge school of thought on this blow up. I would not call it a "misfire", as when a primer fails to ignite. I began loading 45 ACP for match competition bullseye in 1960, all accurized (by Giles, Clark, etc) 1911 models built on Colt Series 70 Government & Gold Cup's, so cannot comment on your type of 45 auto. My standard powder charge was, (and still is to a small degree), 4.0 grs. of Bullseye powder with my own cast 185 & 200 gr. lead bullets, using a taper crimp. Loaded and fired approx. 5000 rounds per year, so do have more than a little experience with the 45 auto. Easiest check you can make to find the cause would be to pull the remaining rounds and weigh the powder charges in each. The impact hammer puller would work fine in this instance. All my match chambers measure approx. .910" in length, and I never found a 45 ACP case that was longer than .895", with most being around .890". If the front of the chamber were loaded up with bits of lead, unburned powder, etc. it should prevent the slide from going fully into battery, all the way forward so the breech is locked. If you had a load without powder, the primer would push the bullet part way down the barrel, empty case would not eject & you would be very aware of something wrong/ the bullet stuck in the barrel. If that did not happen, it was not a bullet stuck with a follow up fired. With the many thousands of rounds I fired over a period of 45 years (1960- 2005) I never once had a bullet setback in the magazine, but even if that were to happen I can't see your catastrophic failure. Take the remaining rounds apart & weigh the powder. Distinguished Pistol 1982, NRA Expert classification, competitor at the National Matches Camp Perry, US Army 21 st. Corp. Pistol Team, etc.

 

[crockersmith]

fdshuster: Thanks so much for your experienced advice. I have been thinking that my next step will be the bullet puller as you suggested. But even if I don't find any double charges I may have been distracted momentarily and double charged one round. This is beginning to look like the obvious reason for my problem. I'll let you know if I turn up anything conclusive.
I am really upset with myself - I'm going to have to become more disciplined in my reloading process. Now I gotta go buy another new gun. ughhh

 

[fdshuster]

crockersmith: My normal routine included visually checking the powder level in each loading block of 50. Easy to do with the big wide open case mouth of the 45 ACP, before seating the bullets. Holding the loading block at an angle under a good light wold quickly reveal a double charge. Had a Dillon 450 progressive loader, a real quality machine and used it for 2 years, but was never comfortable using it without visually checking each case before seating the bullet. The early models had a powder measure that would sometimes hang up & not drop powder, so if you weren't careful ammo could be loaded without powder, and several I know did just that. Both destroyed Colt Gold Cups because they failed to clear the barrel after firing a no powder load. Another guy on one of my pistol teams blew up a Smith & Wesson md. 52 (38 spcl auto) when he loaded 6.3 grs. of Winchester 231 powder when the charge should have been 3.6. Exact same results as yours: both grips blew off, magazine out the bottom of the grip, barrel split at the chamber and half way down the length. The only part salvagable (by S&W when repaired) was the frame. yes, I'd be interested to hear what you find as the cause.

 

[Forum Boss]

I think the likelihood is of a double charge. Bullet setback, unless it is really extreme, would not have the effects described, given a normal load for the 45 acp which is relatively low pressure.

A couple things can be done to avoid this in the future. The first is to use a bulky powder such as AA #5 that will overfill on a double charge. The second is to use an RCBS lock-out die. On a progressive press this works be measuring the powder column with a dipper rod. If the load is more than about 0.4 grains high or low, the lock-out die engages and it will prevent you front moving the shell plate (holding the rounds) up. You know right away if there is a problem. My lock-out die has saved my a** a couple times -- usually when I remove a case from the progressive to inspect, and then fail to advance everything another station.

Also, as a point of interest -- though .45 acp officially headspaces off the case mouth, you'll find that, in reality, they headspace off the extractor, because almost all fired .45 acp brass is too short to reach the end of the chamber (measure and you'll see that's true). You can confirm this by loading with a fast powder such as TiteGroup, and looking at the flame pattern on the case. If you index the case before firing, you'll see that the longer flame mark is always on the side opposite the extractor, which pulls the case back and to the right.

 

[fdshuster]

"Forum boss": Exactly true about case lenght vs. chamber length, and the main reason G.I. hardball will not group as tight as the Hensley & Gibbs semi-wadcutter (#'s 130 & 68) cast lead bullets. The semi-wadcutters can be seated out long enough to jam into the front of the chamber whereas the round nose FMJ hardball does not have the sharp 90 degree shoulder. Rarely do I ever find a case more than .895, with the vast majority being .890", and a few even shorter. Apply a taper crimp and it makes it further impossible for the mouth of the case to contact the front of the chamber. I set-up my Dillon 450 with an automotive inspection mirror mounted so I could look into the case mouth to see the powder level before seating the bullet. This was before they re-designed the powder slide bar and came out with the powder level warning die. Take the barrel out of a 1911 and drop a round nose bullet in the chamber and you can see how much front to rear slop there is between the cartridge and the face of the slide. With wadcutters you can fill up the chamber so there is no slop when the pistol is in battery. Wow! Really getting off the subject here of precision rifle shooting/reloading, so I better shut up.

 

[bozo699]

crockersmith,
First I would like to say thank God you and any bystanders did not get hurt or (worse)
I have a rcbs progresive press I bought a couple of years ago still in the box for this exact reason! Why did I buy it ? I have an idea I can take a small plc a special fiberoptic sensor and amplifier and make a (bullet proof warning system) I will only trust it after a lot of testing trying to trip it up.Untill then I use fdshusters method, it works (VISUALLY CHECKING EACH LOAD) By the way Frank those are very impressive credentials you have, that is awesome! All in all I believe this is a very inexpensive lesson for you and all of us!!!!!we all need to remember we are making little bombs (loaded cartridges) and we have to not get complacent with our loading practices.
Crockersmith hang whats left of your pistol on the wall of your loading room for a reminder for you and all that see it what just a little mistake on our part can do.Don't give up buy another pistol and keep shooting!
Very sincerly Wayne.

 

[juliomorris]

I have always be afraid of loading a squib or a double charge so I load 50 at a time. I dump the loads first then I visually check each case. It sounds like it might have fired out of battery and it could have been because the cases needed trimming. On my 45s and 40s I trim every time I reload.

 

[fdshuster]

"And the rest of the story", about the guy who blew up the S&W mdl 52, and I think I can justify it under the safety category/ applies to any and all cartridges & firearms. About a week after the blow-up, a For Sale sign appeared on our club bulletin board offering 38 spcl. reloads, ad posted by guess who? Several of us saw the ad and jumped all over him & he took it down, reluctantly. His "reasoning" was that just because they did not work in his gun, did not mean they would not be OK in somebody else's. Next tme you're at a Gun Show and are tempted to buy some no-name reloads, packaged in a zip lock sandwich bag, stop and think: this is a true story, I'm not making it up, it really happened!

 

[Forum Boss]

I have a rcbs progresive press I bought a couple of years ago still in the box for this exact reason! Why did I buy it ? I have an idea I can take a small plc a special fiberoptic sensor and amplifier and make a (bullet proof warning system) I will only trust it after a lot of testing trying to trip it up.Untill then I use fdshusters method, it works (VISUALLY CHECKING EACH LOAD)

If you have an RCBS press get the RCBS LOCK-OUT die! IMHO it is even MORE reliable than visually checking because it is not dependent on angle/light conditions etc.

Most people have never heard of this die, but it works. It is simple and it will prevent you from even seating a bullet over the powder column if your load is 0.4 grains high or low.

I really strongly recommend using the lock-out die on a progressive. I think RCBS should include one with every RCBS progressive sold. NOTE: the lock-out die will also work with Dillon and Hornady progressives.

Lock-out die instructions: http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/LockOutDie_Instructions.pdf

 

[Kenny474]

"And the rest of the story", about the guy who blew up the S&W mdl 52, and I think I can justify it under the safety category/ applies to any and all cartridges & firearms. About a week after the blow-up, a For Sale sign appeared on our club bulletin board offering 38 spcl. reloads, ad posted by guess who? Several of us saw the ad and jumped all over him & he took it down, reluctantly. His "reasoning" was that just because they did not work in his gun, did not mean they would not be OK in somebody else's. Next tme you're at a Gun Show and are tempted to buy some no-name reloads, packaged in a zip lock sandwich bag, stop and think: this is a true story, I'm not making it up, it really happened!

I have a similar incident that happened to me. A guy I see at the range all the time gave me a huge box of shotgun shells at the beginning of last year and said he didn't need them as he didn't have a shotgun anymore. I thought nothing of it, and really never even looked at them. About 3 weeks later he had his rifle explode beside me while we were shooting, caused by using way too fast of a powder in a large rifle case, I believe shotgun shell powder though I am not positive.
After things calmed down and we realized we were ok we get to talking. This is when he tells me his shotgun did the same thing about a month prior, from the same batch of shells he had given me! Needless to say the shells were broken down for hulls and shot and he has been banned from the range for his little present of possible death.
He is lucky, as he only ended up with a few stitches as a result of both incidents.

 

[Steve Blair]

My standard .45 ACP practice load since 1978 has been 5.4 Green Dot behind a 200 grain H&G SWC for around 900 fps. It fills about 2/3 of the available space and a double charge is obvious and messy. It also helps that it is accurate with soft recoil. I used to shoot about 1000 per month and still have the Colt Mark IV Series 70 with the original barrel and over 76,000 of these loads through it. I broke a slide stop sometime in the late eighties and that is the only malfunction. The bore still looks good and it shoots well. Treat a good .45 right and it will last a lifetime.