Reforming cases issues

[mefizto]

Greetings all,

being motivated by learning something new and paranoia that certain cases may disappear, I am have been trying to reform .223 cases into .221 FB, and ultimately to .20 VarTarg.

I have first cleaned and tumbled several different head-stamped cases (LC, PMC, FC and WIN5.556 mm), and then reformed them by Redding .221 body die. It went rather well as you can see from the attached picture, I lost one case out of fifty – the case developed crease along the entire length of the neck.


I have then cut the case several thousand of inch taller by a hack saw, and cleaned the neck, but not to the correct length. The reason was, that I wanted to take measurements and compare them with a (reference) Lapua .221 FB case.

The measured neck dimension is .254 inches vis-à-vis the Lapua’s 0.248. This has been expected, since the neck is formed form the thicker portion of the case.

The (relative) base to shoulder dimension, measured by a comparator/bump gauge, is 1.088 inch for Lapua and 1.092 inch for the reformed case. I thought that I did not adjust the Redding .221 body die correctly, but I discovered that it was not the case (no pun intended), the press’ piston clearly touches the bottom of the die.

I was surprised that the remaining dimensions are exactly as the dimensions of the Lapua, regardless of the case’s head-stamp.

I have two questions:

1. What do I do about the shoulder length discrepancy? Do I sent the die back to Redding? Do I ask a friend to shorten the die?
2. The hack saw method of cutting the cases is unsatisfactory; it takes a lot of time and it is imprecise. Any ideas, considering that there is a need to produce hundreds of cases.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[Evan]

Check out one of these for cutting them off: https://www.harborfreight.com/2-in-mini-bench-top-cut-off-saw-62136.html

For bumping: even though you have die contact without load, you can still thread it down to get more bump. Have you tried threading the die down more? 0.004" isn't far - less than a quarter turn.

Also, if you weren't aware: https://sleepinggiantbrass.com/20-vartarg-brass - Affordable Lake city resized to 20 Vartarg.

 

[jepp2]

1. What do I do about the shoulder length discrepancy? Do I sent the die back to Redding? Do I ask a friend to shorten the case?

The easiest way to deal with this, is to remove some material from the top of the shell holder. Shell holders are cheap and soft and easy to remove material. Dies are expensive and the surface is very hard.

Did you anneal the brass before sizing down?

 

[mefizto]

Hi Evan,

thank you for the pointer to the saw, this appears to be a great solution.

I am not sure about your proposition re bumping. I raise the ram on the press and hold it in the uppermost position. Then I screw the die to firmly contact the ram and secure the locking ring. There is no way that I can screw the die lower without pushing the ram down.

I am aware of the brass, but, the motivation is learning and independence.

Hi jepp2,

thank you for the suggestion; this would solve the problem. But, given the (general) praise for Redding, should the die not be made to tighter tolerances?

No, I did not anneal before resizing, but this is once fired brass.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[Evan]

Hi Evan,

thank you for the pointer to the saw, this appears to be a great solution.

I am not sure about your proposition re bumping. I raise the ram on the press and hold it in the uppermost position. Then I screw the die to firmly contact the ram and secure the locking ring. There is no way that I can screw the die lower without pushing the ram down.

I am aware of the brass, but, the motivation is learning and independence.

M

When you size a piece of brass, I bet an air gap opens between the ram and the die due to just how much force it takes to size a piece of brass, causing the whole system to flex. So if you thread the die in a little further beyond when it just contacts the shell holder when the ram is up, you'll achieve more shoulder bump.

 

[mefizto]

Hi Evan,

O.K., I will go and try that.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[JSH]

I actually enjoy making brass, but the off side on my return and frustration level may peak well before I get a sizebale amount made.
I would rather spend my time loading and shooting anymore as to spending hours at the bench with a small amount of good quality brass in return.

 

[JSH]

How many of these are you needing/wanting?

I picked up a 222 rifle, but had dies and no brass. I had seen where there were numerous folks having luck making theirs from 223. I had a good amount of virgin brass, so I made 50. I had numerous old file trim dies, one of those was used to trim to rough length. Use a fine tooth hobby/jewelers saw.

 

[jepp2]

thank you for the suggestion; this would solve the problem. But, given the (general) praise for Redding, should the die not be made to tighter tolerances?

If what @Evan suggested doesn't set the shoulder back sufficiently, THEN I would shorten the shellholder. But I'm betting that will take care of it.

Regarding your question about Redding tighter tolerances. Yes, Redding does an excellent job holding their tolerances to industry standards. I generally find my Redding dies are several thousandths above the shell holder when my ram is at the top of the stroke. But if your rifle is short chambered, it could exceed the standard they follow. I have a "fleet" of Redding dies and I have had to shorten the shell holder on just 1 die. And it was a 223AI, which I know is short chambered, just the way I prefer it to be.

Shell holder deck height can also vary, and if it is longer than the 0.125", it will limit the amount you can setback the shoulder.

Your process is turning out some nice brass. Even on once fired, since you are moving the shoulder so far down the case body, I would anneal below the shoulder before I started. Maybe that is just me.

 

[edwardware]

I raise the ram on the press and hold it in the uppermost position. Then I screw the die to firmly contact the ram and secure the locking ring.

You're not full length sizing. The press strains slightly with a case in play, and leaves you several thou longer than the die.

There is no way that I can screw the die lower without pushing the ram down.

Lower the ram, add 1/8th turn, and size a case. You should feel a slight cam-over. If not, add another 1/8th. Feel the slight cam-over? Now you're full length sizing.

I did not anneal before resizing, but this is once fired brass.

I'm surprised at how well you're fairing without annealing. Forming LC5.56 to .222 is much easier, with a much higher success rate, after annealing the new shoulder position prior.

 

[mefizto]

Hi JSH,

if I am successful and efficient, I will just slowly starting to make them so I have about 2000. I understand the time issue you alluded to, but since I do not have frivolous distractions like TV set, computer games, I can just listen to music and make cases little-by-little.

Hi jepp2,

thank you for the reply, interesting information about the dies. I have tried the procedure suggested by Evan and was able to move the shoulder by about 0.001 inch. I will measure the shell-holder.

It seems a general consensus to anneal. I will buy the heat indicating (is it the correct term?) paint and experiment.

Hi edwardware,

thank you for the reply, unfortunately, the procedure did not fully work. I will measure the shell-holder as jepp2 suggested. I will eventually figure it out with all your gratuitous help.

I was actually surprised also about loosing only a single case. It is interesting how we have different experiences. Some people suggested incremental resizing, my experience suggests slow and steady pressure.

Kindest regards,

M

 

[mefizto]

Hi jepp2,

based on your suggestion to measure the shell holder, I measured 0.130 inch from the face that contacts the bottom of the case to the top surface. Since you suggested that the standard is 0.125 inch, which would account for the difference I measure.

Thank you as well as to everybody who participated very much.

Could anybody suggest a quality shell holder?

Kindest regards,

M