Reduced Loads in Rifle cartridges for small game Hunting

[Frankr]

Has anyone ever Played around with reduced loads in large rifle cartridges for hunting small game. like Squirrel ect.
I tried it for the first time this morning. with a few loads I could find out. only one of them worked. shooting a very small charge of Blue Dot in a 6XC 1-8 twist. 65 gr V max at 1,550 FPS shot good. I may try it on some squirrel tomorrow.
But my concern is IS IT SAFE..I really don't know. I shot 12 rounds threw the chrony today and it seems consistent I had one a 1,505 and one at 1,575 but the rest were right at 1,545-1,556.. shot like a .750 6 shot group at 100 yards. A few guys I could talk to said they had done it with out issue. What I have been able to read is the blue dot type powders will burn by heat and burn all up at once where as a slow rifle type powder burns from kernel to kernel and need to be touching. but I don't really know.

 

[snert]

This is an area that has its cautions and its problems, as well as successes.

Don Lewis, gun writer, wrote in PA Game News an article in the 70's about reduced loads. he listed several loads for 222, 220 Swift, 308, using both cast and jacketed bullets. I took his word that it worked, loaded my 222 with a 40 grain hornet bullet and x grains Unique and had the best d#@n squirrel rifle I ever shot. Bugholes at 50 yards, kills to 75. Weaver T10 and I felt like Carlos Hathcock plugging the squirrel-cong.

Years later an article was written called "To Bee or not to Bee", which advocated Blue Dot and listed multiple calibers/loads. Mention was made of pressure spikes, but little credance to same. I think the 19 caliber guy wrote that article but I could be wrong. If pressed i could go find both articles.

On the other hand interviews with Robin Sharpless (HR, Cheytac and Redding Reloading) have revealed some incidents of pressure spikes from low volumn loads of fast powder resulting in gun damage. I am not a scientist and have a lousy memory, so the details of the process escape me.

Some manuals will list reduced loads, and some list cast bullet loads.

I have tried unique in a 220 Swift, using x grains and a dacron filler, with a 40 grain bullet. 35 yard groups were exceptional. With IMR 4227 and a 40 grain bullet, same got me exceptional hornet like velocities and a few dead chucks at 150 yards. The swift, however, seems a bit too big for this process and I have moved away from it.

The 222 load is still in use, no dacron, and besides having a little powder residue blowing back if I forget to only neck size and full size, this is a low velocity, highly accurate squirrel hunters dream. My 222 VS from the 70's loved it, and the 722/Hart 40XBBR clone I shoot now loves it too. It will outshoot a 40x rimfire, a 513T and every 22 mag i ever met.

PM if you need more info on the articles. I could scan them and send them to an email. I will not discuss my exact loads.

 

[savagedasher]

Hodgdon has a list of reduced loads . Larry

 

[MQ1]

I played with Blue Dot without issues, but switched to Traill Boss and H4895 because they seem to be generally safer. Good results from both, too.

MQ1

 

[Frankr]

I tried H4895 no good. velocity was too high and it sooted the cases back past the shoulder. Trail Boss is not available .
but I have heard nothing but good about Trail Boss but can not get it and Hodgdon took down their reduced load listings for it...so I don't know what is up . I been going to call them.

 

[scope eye]

This is the way to go it works every time.

Here is the Rifle one
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-Reduced-Loads%20R_P.pdf

Here is the Pistol one
http://www.imrpowder.com/data/handgun/trailboss.php

Dean

 

[LitLBoy]

Trail Boss

 

[Gary in MD]

Ken Waters did a lot of work with reduced loads in different cartridges.
There is a lot of info in his Pet Loads books (a must have in my opinion).

Gary

 

[MQ1]

I made up about 60 reduced loads with Blue Dot for a .223 and 100 for a 243, and while the accuracy was there, the only thing that concerned me was the possibility of the charge detonating at once, vs burning fast...this is what prompted me to look into Trail Boss, as it fills the entire case.

I personally would feel comfortable using Blue Dot again, but I'd definitely develop the load using something like cotton or polyester-type insulation on top of the charge, reducing the open space, and keeping the Blue Dot in place over the primer.

I've reloaded for pistols as long as I've loaded for rifles, and personally feel that it is highly unlikely to have the powder detonate all at once...more likely to win the lottery IMHO. I believe it is more likely that the reloader can get distracted and double charge a load, and never realize it...with disastrous results.

Take extra care if using Blue Dot...a double charge will end a good squirrel hunt on a bad note. Or find a nice .22 hornet and expand your horizons

MQ1

 

[snert]

I must be the exception. I tried Trail boss in my 222 and it went from 1/4 inch gun to a 6 inch gun. Just my experience. I went in with great expectations and great comfort level, left thinking i wasted several hours and $20.

 

[M-61]

P.O.Ackley wrote some interesting information in what if I remember correctly, was about "..large rifle cartridges with reduced loads."
Also should my memory serve me, he was trying to duplicate a phenomenon called detonation.
I don't know is this applies to your application or whether powders have changed to prevent this over the many decades, but it might be worth looking into.
I do believe this may be why there are 'minimum' loads listed in manuals.

 

[Tom Thomson]

FJ
In P O Ackley's book he devotes a chapter to reduced loads and "detonation". If I read correctly, he feels that this may be caused by slow powder and small loads in big cases and may be mitigated by magnum primers. He also says that he has been unable to duplicate the problem in the lab but he included enough pictures of exploded guns to make me nervous. I have been shooting Trail Boss loads (12 gr) in my Savage 110 - 308 and am pleased with the results (1/2 min groups). I just shot 10 rounds loaded with IMR 4895 (25 gr) with no problem. I may be a worry wart but, but like you, I am concerned about safety. Please keep us informed about your results.
tommyt

 

[Berger.Fan222]

I've used Blue Dot with great success in 222 and 223 and TrailBoss with moderate success in various 30 cals.

 

[Iowa Fox]

I have used Blue Dot in the 22 Hornet, 222, 223, 243, 357 max, the 44 Mag and have had good luck. I have broken in several brand new barrels using Blue Dot. I'm not sure if the lower heat and slower velocity had anything to do with it but they all shot lights out when I went to full power loads with no copper fouling at all. Maybe they were just good barrels and its all in my mind. I shot about 300 rounds of 243 full house loads, barrel got pretty toasty a couple times. Never so much as ran a patch down the bore. Absolutely zero fouling, copper or carbon. Same with the 223. Got a new 243 barrel on order that should be here fist part of next year and its going to get broken in on Blue Dot because that one will probably catch it on long strings.

 

[ARW]

Years ago I tried hunting gray squirrels with a .218 Bee and 40gr. BT's. It was super accurate and shot really well but would remove their entire head though. Not exactly what I was looking for.

I then went to a 221 Fireball and Berger 52-55 gr. match target bullets at around 2500 fps and found that to be exactly what I was looking for.
Excellent accuracy and the target bullets work really well on taking the squirrels cleanly without overkill.

Alan

 

[jds holler]

I got into it years ago with a Lyman 45 gr. cast bullet mold and most all of the Hercules pistol/shotgun powders. The two rifles used were my 218 Bee, and my trusty 222. In the Bee I was able to load down to around 22 long rifle power with super accuracy. Seemed to do better with the 222 using 4227. Never had a chrony, never used fillers, and never experienced detonation. What data I had came from cast bullet hand books or magazine articles, and I don't think I have any of them anymore.

I've never done it with jacketed bullets, but believe that I may want to. jd

 

[Eric Leonard]

against the law to smallgame hunt with any centerfire in Tn, but I have developed subsonic loads with bludot and 69 SMK in my CZ 527 9 twist 223,,,started at 15 grs and worked down until I got to the 1050 fps range,,,it was below 10 grs,,never had any issues and shot less than inch at 100

 

[Frankr]

you know I have a few big fox squirrels in my back yard but I went half way across the county today to hunt some squirrels. I never seen one today. but it was still very thick,cold,windy,some rain.. just a bad day. so I did not get to shoot any thing. But I fired a round at a knot in a dead tree. and two more. shot good, cases look good. It does burn very clean. I will keep testing and shooting , I am sure sometime between now and second season I will get a few shot. But it looks like it will work. And if it does I may buy a 223 over a new 22LR.. That is how this all got started. I said I think I could buy a new 223 cheaper than a new quality 22LR and down load it to 22LR velocity. some said it cant be done and you wont be happy with it. others said it could..then they said do it with a rifle you have now and see how you like it before you spent any money. so I had Blue Dot but hey who doesn't. I had 65 V-max's and I have a 1-8 twist 6XC..so that is what I did. I have that 65 V max at 1,550 FPS. It's quiet , shoots well. I have no doubt it will kill well. just need to spend some time out there.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

against the law to smallgame hunt with any centerfire in Tn, but I have developed subsonic loads with bludot and 69 SMK in my CZ 527 9 twist 223,,,started at 15 grs and worked down until I got to the 1050 fps range,,,it was below 10 grs,,never had any issues and shot less than inch at 100

I remember using Blue Dot loads on coyotes and groundhogs back in the day. Much quieter than full power loads for hunting near homes and buildings.

 

[jim_k]

l have used H4895, and the info at Hodgdon's website says you can use 60% or more of a listed maximum load. It is only recommended where the loading manual has a listed load for H4895. Anyway, down close to the 60% powder charge, I got a couple of hang-fires. I recommend using no less than 75% of a listed maximum load from a loading manual, for the given cartridge and bullet weight. I also have not obtained good accuracy from TrailBoss. However, TrailBoss was not developed for target shooting. It is great for teaching kids and non-shooters to have proper follow-through, and to stay down on the rifle after a shot.