RCBS Full Length Die Set Up

[Mark71]

I have an RCBS Rock Chucker press and all of my sizing dies are RCBS. I'm reloading for a variety of hunting rifles from 223 to 300WM, so I'm not going for benchrest accuracy, just wanna produce the best ammunition I can.

I used to set up my dies for shoulder bump by backing the die off slightly from contact with the shell holder and then incrementally lowering the die by moving my lock ring, tightening the ring, installing the die, sizing and checking for bump. If I needed more bump I removed the die from the press, moved the ring, locked the ring, installed the die and checked for bump again. Basically the same process that Erik Cortina shows in one of his videos about adjusting for shoulder bump...the only difference is he is using a Forster Co-Ax where the die floats so using this method in that scenario should not negatively impact the quality of the sized cartridge.

As I move down the reloading road I have read a lot of information about leaving the lock ring loose, running the case into the die and THEN locking the ring in place when the case is in the die to assist with getting a more concentric sized cartridge. A couple of things I have found with this process is that it is little more finicky to make the small adjustments, but the bigger issue I am having is that once I get everything set where it should be I screw the lock ring down against the press bushing and tighten the lock ring screw (using Hornady lock rings) securing the ring and the die. The screw in the lock ring is tight and the die is tight and has ever moved throughout the sizing process. However, when I want to remove the die I typically have to use a slip jaw pliers on the knurled portion of the die or a wrench on the ring flats. Once the tension is taken off most of the time the lock ring is no longer tight and I loose my setting. I understand this has to do with thread pitch and the ring jamming against the press bushing, but loosing this setting every time is a real pain in the a$$. I have used a marker to mark the die body and the ring to get things close for the next session, but it is still far from installing the die and starting to resize.

I recognize that if the die was still set from the last sizing session I would want to check the first few resized cases from next session to ensure I am still getting the bump I want, but assuming it is, having to not go through the entire die set up process each time would be a huge time saver and less frustrating.

Am I missing something in the whole process that I can change that will allow me to maintain this setting from one reloading session to the next or is this just the nature of the beast?

Sorry for the long post.

 

[LHSmith]

I don't use those split ring type lock nuts for that reason. I find the default setting for my die I tighten the setscrew and as I need more shoulder bump I simply unscrew the die and add shims as required under the lockring and spin the die into the press until it stops- finger tight -no tools- and I get repeatable bump measurements. To me those split rings are a pita.

 

[Mark71]

I don't use those split ring type lock nuts for that reason. I find the default setting for my die and as I need more shoulder bump I simply unscrew the die and add shims as required under the lockring and spin the die into the press until it stops. To me those split rings are a pita.

I've tried shims as well, but in either scenario or whatever type of ring I've tried if I tighten it up with the case in the die to maintain concentricity everything loosens up when the die is removed. I'm assuming this "jamming" action is caused by the slight cant of the threads. Once tension is off the ring is loose.

The split rings work great if I use them as you describe which is how I used to do it, but you loose the benefit of centering the case in the die doing it this way. pros and cons both ways I guess, but with the goal being the best ammunition possible I've been trying to follow the second scenario...with some frustration unfortunately.

 

[divingin]

I think your problem is coming from jamming the lock ring against whatever it hits on the press. That causes a lot of friction as you try to lock the ring onto the die body. Use fairly light pressure between the ring and press and see if that doesn't allow you to lock the ring to the die. Maybe a little lube between the ring and press would help as well.

I tighten after breaking the ring loose, but try to hold the die and ring as a unit so the ring doesn't move (much.)

 

[Mark71]

I think your problem is coming from jamming the lock ring against whatever it hits on the press. That causes a lot of friction as you try to lock the ring onto the die body. Use fairly light pressure between the ring and press and see if that doesn't allow you to lock the ring to the die. Maybe a little lube between the ring and press would help as well.

I tighten after breaking the ring loose, but try to hold the die and ring as a unit so the ring doesn't move (much.)

I've tried this as well. Seems to give me the same result. The die is typically easier to loosen but the loose lock ring result is the same.

To be honest I'm not sure if there is a way to do this set up method with the case in the die without having the ring loose because if the ring was tightened to the die and the die is screwed into the press against the adapter bushing then the die is not floating, thus not self centering.

 

[divingin]

I've tried this as well. Seems to give me the same result. The die is typically easier to loosen but the loose lock ring result is the same.

To be honest I'm not sure if there is a way to do this set up method with the case in the die without having the ring loose because if the ring was tightened to the die and the die is screwed into the press against the adapter bushing then the die is not floating, thus not self centering.

So try this: Rough set the ring on the die (either off the press, or not screwed down.) Tighten the screw until the ring locks. Loosen the screw by a given amount (half a turn? Full turn? Whatever loosens it up.) Set your die height and lockring, and then tighten the screw whatever amount you loosened, plus a tad more. If that doesn't work, it sounds like you need to go a perpendicular setscrew type ring (RCBS type.)

On the floating thing, a lot of people were touting an O-Ring between the lockring and the press for just that reason.

 

[K22]

I've used RCBS standard dies for 50+ years and have produced varmint level precision reloads. As you can imagine, my process has evolved over the years and refined for more consistent and uniform sizing. My two goals are functional reloads and acceptable accuracy for precision varmint hunting.

I've tried a variety of FL sizing approaches, including "competition shell holders". What works the best for me is Skip Shims, available via Sinclair International or I guess it's Brownell's now.

I set my FL die up as follows:

I place the .01 Shim under the lock ring the turn the die down until it makes full contact with the shell holder. I make sure that any slack in the press is taken up by working the press handle and turn the die down so the ram will not move which, depending on the amount of slack your press (mine is 50+ years old) may require a slight amount of cam over. Once the die is set, I move the ram up, turn the lock ring down and tighten it. I make a memory mark with a Sharpie on the die and lock ring. I release the ram and remove the die. If the lock ring loosens, as it sometimes does, I merely realign the lock ring to the die at the memory mark and retighten.

The die is now set up and never needs to be changed no matter which rifle brass I'm sizing. For example, I'm currently loading for 10, 223 Rem both rifles with each having its own set of dedicated cases and sometimes requiring different FL die setting to obtain optimum sizing.

After virgin cases are fired formed to the rifle chamber, I measure the fire case at a datum line with Whidden bump gauge. I try the first shim, .008" which increases the sizing .002" and check the case in the bump gauge. My goal is a shoulder set back of zero to no more than .002, ideally .001". Once I find the shim that gives me the desire amount of sizing, I mark the shim size on the cartridge box for future reference and use.

If I need more sizing, I use the .007" or .006" shim or smaller. Every time I resize a group of cases, I measure the fire case "head space" of 3 cases with the bump gauge to determine if I need to change the sizing. Because I do not anneal, after repeated firing and sizing the cases may harden and require more sizing thus a smaller shim.

This system is simple, in expensive, easy to make adjustments and produces adequately sized case of precision hunting quality. You do not need to spend a ton of money or make this process overly complicated if all you are attempting to do is produce high quality precision hunting grade reloads. With a quality rifle and scope, I can achieve 1/2 to 5/8" moa with cases sized in this matter and of course load development.

PS: This process only works well if you start with virgin cases that are dedicated to a specific rifle and the firing is rotated so all cases receive the same number of firings and sizing to promote uniformity.

PSS: Another very important issue is managing the use of the expander button with is part of a standard FL RCBS die but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[Rsadams]

You need a headspace gauge to setup easy... With that simply screw the die down SLOWLY checking it with the headspace comparator until you get what you want and lock the set screw on the dies locking ring... I put a small piece of bird shot in their to keep the set screw from stripping... Number 8 works fine and one 12g shotshell gives you around 400 lead shot... At that point when I reinstall the die I screw it down finger tight or use a wrench to tighten it giving you a few more thousands of bump if necessary...

 

[Mark71]

So try this: Rough set the ring on the die (either off the press, or not screwed down.) Tighten the screw until the ring locks. Loosen the screw by a given amount (half a turn? Full turn? Whatever loosens it up.) Set your die height and lockring, and then tighten the screw whatever amount you loosened, plus a tad more. If that doesn't work, it sounds like you need to go a perpendicular setscrew type ring (RCBS type.)

On the floating thing, a lot of people were touting an O-Ring between the lockring and the press for just that reason.

Good comments.

If I set the ring with the die not installed and make fine adjustments by removing the die, adjusting the ring and reinstalling the die, I have always been able to achieve the bump I want...I just lose the benefit of floating the die to ensure everything is centered.

I have not tried the O-ring but I may have to try this. As you describe, this should alleviate the split ring jamming against the bushing on the press as the O-ring will compress as the ring cants with the threads.

 

[Mark71]

I've used RCBS standard dies for 50+ years and have produced varmint level precision reloads. As you can imagine, my process has evolved over the years and refined for more consistent and uniform sizing. My two goals are functional reloads and acceptable accuracy for precision varmint hunting.

I've tried a variety of FL sizing approaches, including "competition shell holders". What works the best for me is Skip Shims, available via Sinclair International or I guess it's Brownell's now.

I set my FL die up as follows:

I place the .01 Shim under the lock ring the turn the die down until it makes full contact with the shell holder. I make sure that any slack in the press is taken up by working the press handle and turn the die down so the ram will not move which, depending on the amount of slack your press (mine is 50+ years old) may require a slight amount of cam over. Once the die is set, I move the ram up, turn the lock ring down and tighten it. I make a memory mark with a Sharpie on the die and lock ring. I release the ram and remove the die. If the lock ring loosens, as it sometimes does, I merely realign the lock ring to the die at the memory mark and retighten.

The die is now set up and never needs to be changed no matter which rifle brass I'm sizing. For example, I'm currently loading for 10, 223 Rem both rifles with each having its own set of dedicated cases and sometimes requiring different FL die setting to obtain optimum sizing.

After virgin cases are fired formed to the rifle chamber, I measure the fire case at a datum line with Whidden bump gauge. I try the first shim, .008" which increases the sizing .002" and check the case in the bump gauge. My goal is a shoulder set back of zero to no more than .002, ideally .001". Once I find the shim that gives me the desire amount of sizing, I mark the shim size on the cartridge box for future reference and use.

If I need more sizing, I use the .007" or .006" shim or smaller. Every time I resize a group of cases, I measure the fire case "head space" of 3 cases with the bump gauge to determine if I need to change the sizing. Because I do not anneal, after repeated firing and sizing the cases may harden and require more sizing thus a smaller shim.

This system is simple, in expensive, easy to make adjustments and produces adequately sized case of precision hunting quality. You do not need to spend a ton of money or make this process overly complicated if all you are attempting to do is produce high quality precision hunting grade reloads. With a quality rifle and scope, I can achieve 1/2 to 5/8" moa with cases sized in this matter and of course load development.

PS: This process only works well if you start with virgin cases that are dedicated to a specific rifle and the firing is rotated so all cases receive the same number of firings and sizing to promote uniformity.

PSS: Another very important issue is managing the use of the expander button with is part of a standard FL RCBS die but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

Thanks. These are excellent comments. The process you describe is basically how I was previously setting up my dies. Sometimes I used the shims and sometimes I just ever so slightly adjusted the ring and reinstalled the die in the press. Using this method I had no problem setting my dies to get the bump I want.

I started reading about people suggesting you get better concentricity by running the case into the die BEFORE locking the ring. When I try this approach is where I run into the issue of the ring jamming against the adapter bushing and coming loose when I remove the die.

I have personal data to support one method works better than the other. The floating die method of inserting the case into the die prior to locking the ring makes sense, but maybe it really has no practical benefit when you are dealing with hunting rifles and ammo?? As you describe, 1/2" - 5/8" MOA is plenty sufficient in hunting scenarios. I can see where this would not suffice for benchrest, but that's not my goal.

I should have mentioned too, I have recently purchased a Wilson expander die and mandrels. in moving forward I plan to use the mandrels to size the neck instead of the expander ball that comes with the die.

Maybe this floating die method has its place, but it's not necessary for my application??? Wouldn't be the first time I've overcomplicated something...especially when it comes to reloading. LOL

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Or get the Whidden universal click adjustable lock ring, I'm going to try one for my RCBS standard die.

 

[marchboom]

Setting up dies should not be this hard. I went thru it for many years and I know what you're going thru.

Have you thought about getting a turret press? A Redding 7-station of Lyman 8-station? Once the dies are set, you're done. Or the ultimate, the Forster Co-Ax.

If you want to stay with your Rock Chucker Hornady makes adapter kits so you can use the Hornady Lock-N-Load system in your RC.

 

[K22]

Thanks. These are excellent comments. The process you describe is basically how I was previously setting up my dies. Sometimes I used the shims and sometimes I just ever so slightly adjusted the ring and reinstalled the die in the press. Using this method I had no problem setting my dies to get the bump I want.

I started reading about people suggesting you get better concentricity by running the case into the die BEFORE locking the ring. When I try this approach is where I run into the issue of the ring jamming against the adapter bushing and coming loose when I remove the die.

I have personal data to support one method works better than the other. The floating die method of inserting the case into the die prior to locking the ring makes sense, but maybe it really has no practical benefit when you are dealing with hunting rifles and ammo?? As you describe, 1/2" - 5/8" MOA is plenty sufficient in hunting scenarios. I can see where this would not suffice for benchrest, but that's not my goal.

Maybe this floating die method has its place, but it's not necessary for my application???

I tried the "floating die" method first hearing about it from German Salazar, a competitive shooter that I respect a lot. He used a No. 17 "O" ring under the lock ring to allow the die to "float", but the lock ring was locked. To achieve the desired amount of sizing, he slightly rotated the die which the rubber "O" ring permitted yet still allowed the die to "float". I never could get this to work for repeated sizing sessions thus I went to shims which are more stable and repeatable.

However, what I discovered was it wasn't the die so much that was causing the concentric issue, it was the expander button. I found that by placing an "O' ring under the expander assembly and allowing it to "float" helped prevent pulling the neck off center. Also, my full sizing consistency wasn't affected by the movement / instability of a floating "O" ring under the die.

I found that most factory expander buttons are oversized creating too much drag on the neck.

Polishing the expander button with very fine emery cloth to a smooth "glass" like finish helps prevent drag. I nylon brush the inside of the case necks before sizing with an oversize nylon brush in a low RPM drill which helps remove the loose carbon residue. Lubing the inside of the necks also helps reduce drag.

As I said in the previous post, managing the expander button is important. I have several that I polished to produce a range of sizes in .001" increments to provide the amount of neck tension I want. As with the shims, I mark the expander assembly that I used on the cartridge box. The assemblies are color coded and inexpensive. This is "poor" man's alternative to bushings.

I like simple, I like uncomplicated. I like efficient. I'd rather be hunting and shooting than reloading. The more complicated the reloading process becomes, the more "stomach acid" I generate. 

While I admire those guys, I don't have the patience or mental makeup for bench rest shooting which requires a high degree of reloading meticulousness and precision. That's why I will never attempt it. As "Dirty Harry" once said, "a man has to know his limitations."

 

[Kracken McGraw]

Redding Competition Shell holders seem fast enough for me each time on my Rockchucker II press. Screw die down till till it touches the .010 shell holder plus a tiny bit more for cam-over, then lock ring down. Just start trading the lower number shell holders till you get your desired bump. I like to trade out the rcbs decapping assembly to the Forster one with the high set expander, plus I like the Forster aluminum locking rings the best. Just my two cents on another way to skin the cat that gets concentric sizing.

 

[K22]

Thanks. These are excellent comments. The process you describe is basically how I was previously setting up my dies. Sometimes I used the shims and sometimes I just ever so slightly adjusted the ring and reinstalled the die in the press. Using this method I had no problem setting my dies to get the bump I want.

I started reading about people suggesting you get better concentricity by running the case into the die BEFORE locking the ring. When I try this approach is where I run into the issue of the ring jamming against the adapter bushing and coming loose when I remove the die.

I have personal data to support one method works better than the other. The floating die method of inserting the case into the die prior to locking the ring makes sense, but maybe it really has no practical benefit when you are dealing with hunting rifles and ammo?? As you describe, 1/2" - 5/8" MOA is plenty sufficient in hunting scenarios. I can see where this would not suffice for benchrest, but that's not my goal.

I should have mentioned too, I have recently purchased a Wilson expander die and mandrels. in moving forward I plan to use the mandrels to size the neck instead of the expander ball that comes with the die.

Maybe this floating die method has its place, but it's not necessary for my application??? Wouldn't be the first time I've overcomplicated something...especially when it comes to reloading. LOL

Sorry, forgot to comment on the mandrel expander method.

While I've never used them, I believe they are superior to the expander button method. It just makes physical sense that the expander mandrel would produce better neck / case alignment. I certainly believe this is a move in the right direction. In fact, if I was younger, I would probably go that route but I'm nearing the end, so I'll stick with my current system which is good enough.

 

[Mark71]

I tried the "floating die" method first hearing about it from German Salazar, a competitive shooter that I respect a lot. He used a No. 17 "O" ring under the lock ring to allow the die to "float", but the lock ring was locked. To achieve the desired amount of sizing, he slightly rotated the die which the rubber "O" ring permitted yet still allowed the die to "float". I never could get this to work for repeated sizing sessions thus I went to shims which are more stable and repeatable.

However, what I discovered was it wasn't the die so much that was causing the concentric issue, it was the expander button. I found that by placing an "O' ring under the expander assembly and allowing it to "float" helped prevent pulling the neck off center. Also, my full sizing consistency wasn't affected by the movement / instability of a floating "O" ring under the die.

I found that most factory expander buttons are oversized creating too much drag on the neck.

Polishing the expander button with very fine emery cloth to a smooth "glass" like finish helps prevent drag. I nylon brush the inside of the case necks before sizing with an oversize nylon brush in a low RPM drill which helps remove the loose carbon residue. Lubing the inside of the necks also helps reduce drag.

As I said in the previous post, managing the expander button is important. I have several that I polished to produce a range of sizes in .001" increments to provide the amount of neck tension I want. As with the shims, I mark the expander assembly that I used on the cartridge box. The assemblies are color coded and inexpensive. This is "poor" man's alternative to bushings.

I like simple, I like uncomplicated. I like efficient. I'd rather be hunting and shooting than reloading. The more complicated the reloading process becomes, the more "stomach acid" I generate. 

While I admire those guys, I don't have the patience or mental makeup for bench rest shooting which requires a high degree of reloading meticulousness and precision. That's why I will never attempt it. As "Dirty Harry" once said, "a man has to know his limitations."

You're comments about the expander button are right on and I have also polished mine to assist with easier sizing of the neck with less stress and friction affecting concentricity.

I also agree that a lot of the potential concentricity issues may very well come from the expander button as opposed to the case sizing. In moving the mandrel direction the hole floating die thing may be unnecessary given the application, which would be nice because setting a die and being able to leave it aside from the odd tweak here and there would be nice.

Simple, uncomplicated and efficient sound pretty darn good to me.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[Mark71]

Redding Competition Shell holders seem fast enough for me each time on my Rockchucker II press. Screw die down till till it touches the .010 shell holder plus a tiny bit more for cam-over, then lock ring down. Just start trading the lower number shell holders till you get your desired bump. I like to trade out the rcbs decapping assembly to the Forster one with the high set expander, plus I like the Forster aluminum locking rings the best. Just my two cents on another way to skin the cat that gets concentric sizing.

I was going to try the shell holders and went the shim route instead. If I set up my dies without the fuss of trying to float the die I don't have any issues. The rings stay tight because they are tightened before being installed and they are easily adjusted to achieve the bump I want.

The main problem is trying to float the die, getting the lock ring jammed against the adapter bushing of the press and then the lock ring coming loose when I remove the die thus loosing the bump setting. If I don't use this method of setting up the die things work well. I just started down the road of the floating die method as it was supposed to achieve better concentricity/less runout.

Quite frankly I'm not sure if I'm gaining anything in the way of better sized brass/accuracy given my application especially given the frustration I am experiencing trying to set up dies this way.

I'm likely going to go back to doing it the way I used to. With the introduction of a sizing mandrel into my reloading process I will likely be just fine. Besides, as K22 noted, him and others have been setting up dies this way for decades and producing more than acceptable ammunition.

I think sometimes we get lost in a rabbit hole chasing an issue or perceived issue and all we accomplish is driving ourselves a little crazy...I know I am guilty of this anyway.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I was going to try the shell holders and went the shim route instead. If I set up my dies without the fuss of trying to float the die I don't have any issues. The rings stay tight because they are tightened before being installed and they are easily adjusted to achieve the bump I want.

The main problem is trying to float the die, getting the lock ring jammed against the adapter bushing of the press and then the lock ring coming loose when I remove the die thus loosing the bump setting. If I don't use this method of setting up the die things work well. I just started down the road of the floating die method as it was supposed to achieve better concentricity/less runout.

Quite frankly I'm not sure if I'm gaining anything in the way of better sized brass/accuracy given my application especially given the frustration I am experiencing trying to set up dies this way.

I'm likely going to go back to doing it the way I used to. With the introduction of a sizing mandrel into my reloading process I will likely be just fine. Besides, as K22 noted, him and others have been setting up dies this way for decades and producing more than acceptable ammunition.

I think sometimes we get lost in a rabbit hole chasing an issue or perceived issue and all we accomplish is driving ourselves a little crazy...I know I am guilty of this anyway.

That sounds like a good plan to go back to the way you were doing it then. There are some old threads about the Forster decapping pin change that supports the case better when expanding the necks that you may be interested in.

 

[K22]

I was going to try the shell holders and went the shim route instead. If I set up my dies without the fuss of trying to float the die I don't have any issues. The rings stay tight because they are tightened before being installed and they are easily adjusted to achieve the bump I want.

The main problem is trying to float the die, getting the lock ring jammed against the adapter bushing of the press and then the lock ring coming loose when I remove the die thus loosing the bump setting. If I don't use this method of setting up the die things work well. I just started down the road of the floating die method as it was supposed to achieve better concentricity/less runout.

Quite frankly I'm not sure if I'm gaining anything in the way of better sized brass/accuracy given my application especially given the frustration I am experiencing trying to set up dies this way.

I'm likely going to go back to doing it the way I used to. With the introduction of a sizing mandrel into my reloading process I will likely be just fine. Besides, as K22 noted, him and others have been setting up dies this way for decades and producing more than acceptable ammunition.

I think sometimes we get lost in a rabbit hole chasing an issue or perceived issue and all we accomplish is driving ourselves a little crazy...I know I am guilty of this anyway.

Be careful of rabbit holes, there are more of them in the shooting sports than potholes in PA. We are all guilty as charged because we want to be the best we can be.

However, I know equipment-oriented people don't want to hear this and of course you want to start with the most accurate rifle system and ammo as possible, but believe me, I've seen it my entire competitive pistol shooting and hunting lifetime, if you don't master the fundamentals of marksmanship then the rest doesn't matter.

There is such an extreme equipment race in today's shooting sports that the most important element is often missing - learning how to shoot.

I know, forgive me, sometimes I get "preachy", but I cannot help it when I see gross shooting errors at the range these days. For example, on Monday I was at the range for my weekly rifle workout off the shooting sticks and this fellow pulls up. He has a beautiful Browning Rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor with a high end Leupold scope. Of course, he's shooting off the bench. He has all the proper set up, quality front and rear rests. At 100 yards his shots are not good, somewhere in the 2" group range.

He looks at my target and says, "You look like you know what you're doing, I'm having trouble, can you help me out." I'm always eager to help but only if they ask. I know what the problem is before he even asks since I was watching him shoot. The scope is mounted too high, and he cannot achieve proper cheek weld. His head is floating around like a "party balloon" on the comb.

After confirming my suspicions, I wrapped a towel over the stock to raise the comb, I shot a 3 shot group (factory ammo) that measured slightly over 1/2-inch center to center. I just made a shooting buddy for life.

 

[Mark71]

Or get the Whidden universal click adjustable lock ring, I'm going to try one for my RCBS standard die.

Thanks for the heads up on those...hadn't heard of these before. Did some looking around and they look very interesting.