QuickLoad: Is It Really Beneficial?

[Phil3]

I am really on the fence about purchasing Quickload. I would appreciate opinions. I will use it to help develop loads for 223, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 6mmBR across 7 different rifles. I do not have a chronograph, but will get one if necessary. I have a ShadeTree co-ax rest sitting on a cast iron Caldwell base and heavy sandbag for the rear, so load development platform is solid. Distance is 100 yards.

I want to get to a good load quickly. Can Quickload truly get one close to a best load? Is a chronograph necessary? If so, no problem. I presume the ladder or OCW method works, but if it does, why do people spend the money on Quickload, which is rather costly at $153.

Comments welcome.

Thanks.

Phil

 

[thefitter]

I would say yes. I only use the basics of the program but it has helped me find alternative powders for loads that are not in any books.

But there are much more experienced and passionate experts here to advise you.

 

[dmoran]

My input to your questions is 4 part:

1 - There is no substitute for what we physically see on the target.
2 - To enhance/improve the target, takes tuning (further load development)
3 - A chronograph can aid to proof or fault of what is physically happening on the target.
4 - QuickLoad can mathematically predict bases, but has to be proven right or wrong (50/50) on the target regardless.

Where I strongly feel QuickLoad is an asset, is for cartridge design.
Donovan

 

[Big Mc]

Just keep in mind it only a tool. Not the BIBLE..Tommy Mc

 

[CharlieNC]

Going by your post count I assume you have read several accounts of using Quick Load in conjunction with Optimum Barrel Time to calculate nodes. This reduces time and cost while instilling confidence in the load. On this basis its worthwhile to me.

 

[Jeff A]

Going by your post count I assume you have read several accounts of using Quick Load in conjunction with Optimum Barrel Time to calculate nodes. This reduces time and cost while instilling confidence in the load. On this basis its worthwhile to me.

I'm with CharlieNC on this one. Just another tool, but a good one. But Phil3, you new I would say that, didn't you?

 

[ericbc7]

If you are n a choosing situation, your money is best spent on a chronograph!

 

[savagedasher]

I would say yes. I only use the basics of the program but it has helped me find alternative powders for loads that are not in any books.

But there are much more experienced and passionate experts here to advise you.

For that reason alone The price is well spent. Larry

 

[Phil3]

If you are n a choosing situation, your money is best spent on a chronograph!

If a chrono is required to make best use of Quickload, I would buy that. From what I read, it would be the MagnetoSpeed v3. Phil

 

[Dgd6mm]

1. If you are a reloader you should own a chronograph.
2. You can waste $153.00 chasing loads for 7 rifles.
3. The lost time and cost involved in going back and forth to the range,unless you can shoot at home like some of us.

 

[Scott Harris]

A chrono is far more valuable than quickload. Owned it, lost my disk...wasnt worth the effort to get another copy.

 

[pogson]

Phil3 wrote, "I want to get to a good load quickly. Can Quickload truly get one close to a best load? Is a chronograph necessary?"

Quickload does a number of things that can help but it certainly isn't essential. If you've made a new chamber/cartridge for which you can find no load data, you can use QL or you can interpolate from published data for similar cartridges considering case volume and bore diameter. Still you should be wary of too low a starting charge with particular powder/cartridge combinations. Squib loads or even burst barrels have happened. You should be wary of any maximum load from any source. The particular rifle/cartridge/chamber/throat/bore/temperature can render a load that gives safe pressure in one rifle excessive pressure (over the SAAMI standard, for instance) in another. There usually isn't any reason to exceed standard maximum pressures and it surely wears out barrels/cases faster which is a bad thing. It's usually hard to burst a barrel because large margins of safety are built in. Of course you should not throw away your margin of safety in the event that things go bad for you.

I've managed quite well with interpolation of published data and watching for signs of maximum pressure, including muzzle-velocity.

The chronograph is the more useful tool, IMHO. It gives MV, a measure of average pressure which in many cases relates to peak pressure. It gives standard deviation of MV which in many cases relates to accuracy. Finding nodes in the vibration of the barrel can compound the accuracy of any load but it sure can't make an awful load wrt to variation in MV shoot well. A node just reduces the effect of variation in MV to a minimum. You can find out all that by careful loading, using a chronograph and shooting targets.

"quickly" is ambiguous. Do you want to find a sweet load in the least amount of time or the least amount of labour or for the lowest cost? Different methods will get you there differently but you still get to the same place. If you are only shooting to 100 yards, ladder tests are insensitive because there isn't enough time for the variation in velocities, drop and elevations to sort themselves out. If you find a load that is sweet at 100 yards, it may not be sweet a bit further out if your MV is all over the place and variations in drop raise their ugly heads. You need everything to be optimal to get a really sweet load.

I'd get the chronograph. Work within a range a bit above your recommended "start" load and a bit below your recommended "max" load to increase your safety margins at both ends. Then fire groups at equally spaced charges, say min + (max-min)/(N-1) where N is the number of tests you want to make. I'd suggest N between 5 and 10 if your min is about 10% less than your max. If your min is about 5% less than your max, try N=5. The first time through, try 3 shot groups minimum. 5 would be much better. Then for less than 50 shots, you have data, targets, from which you can calculate group size versus charge. Measure the position of each bullet-hole and calculate the difference in position from the average position. Calculate the standard deviation of those differences. Plot those standard deviations versus charge. A sweet load should be where the standard deviations are minimum and change slowly with charge. Pick two or three charges near that minimum and retest with 10-shot groups. You may have to shoot only one or two bullets at each bull to avoid erasing holes. Whether or not this is your ultimate load, you will have a load that is almost certain to give you nice groups at that range at that temperature.

There are an infinite number of such techniques. The above is quite reliable but may not be "quick" enough. Another technique that guarantees a similar result a bit faster is "blind man with a stick". You start at the middle charge. Measure your group-size as above. Then take another test a grain or two up or down in charge. If the group-size increases, reverse course and go the other direction. As you converge on a sweet spot, take smaller steps (e.g. 2 gr, 1gr, 0.5gr, 0.2gr, 0.1gr...) and don't go past "maximum" or below "minimum". If you get there, likely there is something wrong with your equipment or technique or you have the wrong powder/bullet.

Another fun technique is "Monte Carlo". Instead of taking fixed steps, use a random number generator giving values from 0 to 1 and test charges of min + (max-min)*random_number. Fire one shot with each charge and carefully measure the point of impact (horizontal and vertical) with exactly the same point of aim. You may need to change sheets every few shots. In a spreadsheet, sort the points first by vertical and then by horizontal position. You should eventually get clusters just as you would from a ladder test. You can plot them to see them as they would be on a target or you can just plot x-coordinates versus charge or y-coordinates versus charge. This will take longer than a ladder test but shorter than taking uniform steps gradually converging. It has the advantage over a ladder test that subjective factors are eliminated. You have numerical differences instead of clusters apparent to human eyes/visual cortex and you take wear and firing order out of the mix.

I may take a different view of "quick". If you can find a sweet load inside of 50 rounds but are left a lifetime or many thousands of shots at the sweet load it's quick enough IMHO.

 

[waldo1979]

Look at this way. How much does the Sierra, Hodgdon, VV, Hornady, etc. reloading manual cost + the space saving from not storing them.

I've found it to be very beneficial. While i check online sources for charge weights i rarely crack open my manuals any more.

 

[savagedasher]

I am really on the fence about purchasing Quickload. I would appreciate opinions. I will use it to help develop loads for 223, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 6mmBR across 7 different rifles. I do not have a chronograph, but will get one if necessary. I have a ShadeTree co-ax rest sitting on a cast iron Caldwell base and heavy sandbag for the rear, so load development platform is solid. Distance is 100 yards.

I want to get to a good load quickly. Can Quickload truly get one close to a best load? Is a chronograph necessary? If so, no problem. I presume the ladder or OCW method works, but if it does, why do people spend the money on Quickload, which is rather costly at $153.

Comments welcome.

Thanks.

Phil

Phil I have had Q L for over 12. In that amount of time I haven't used 2 % of the information that it has. When I first got it I have a limited supply of different powders. QL gave me information where I could use powders I had in calibers . Many the powder was not listed in the books for that caliber. As time went on I was working up loads for double guns. One barrel you shot a soft point the other solid both were different weight. the barrels were regulate when built for the yardage where the bullet crossed. The amount of charge or powder drop Regulated the vertical. With the aid of QL it gave me a reference of the speed. instead of having to shoot 20 plus round I narrow it 8. Later on I found the loads that best All had the Z1 and PM on or near the peak of the powder burn. Chris Long had worked with Barrel Time and that was in the program also. For me their was to many variables that must be entered . Every time that I tried different powders that shot well had large numbers difference. As I worked for a higher level of accuracy I found compressed load shot better than the loads that wasn't. OL gave me the answers of every powder that was listed. Including the pressures that powder company had as a standard. Well over a hundred Same with the bullets. And the various calibers.
QL let you change all the variables and give you a reference of the change. With that in mind only your knowledge of reloading will make you find a good faster. Larry

 

[Joe R]

Phil3 said:

I am really on the fence about purchasing Quickload. I would appreciate opinions. I will use it to help develop loads for 223, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 6mmBR across 7 different rifles. I do not have a chronograph, but will get one if necessary. I have a ShadeTree co-ax rest sitting on a cast iron Caldwell base and heavy sandbag for the rear, so load development platform is solid. Distance is 100 yards.

I want to get to a good load quickly. Can Quickload truly get one close to a best load? Is a chronograph necessary? If so, no problem. I presume the ladder or OCW method works, but if it does, why do people spend the money on Quickload, which is rather costly at $153.

Comments welcome.

Thanks.

Phil

Phil,
I understand your reluctance to spending $153 on QL. If all you're going to shoot is 100 yards forget both and just have fun.

A chronograph an QL are essential for those shooting 1K yards. If money is scarce and you can only afford one, then the chronograph is the one to get. Don't get a cheapy for $100+. There is nothing worse than a chronograph that gives you bad data. Save your money and buy a Oehler or Magretospeed. Look for a used one, lots of guys are upgrading to the LabRadar. You ought to be able to pickup a good one for $300.

QL won't do you much good without a chronograph. However IMO QL will pay for itself many times over by saving you bullets, powder, primers and, most of all, time and frustration. It will get you to the best load quickly.

What QL does is give you the info that you need to get to the velocity that is OBT. Once you're there, than you can fine tune the seating depth and have the confidence that only knowledge can give. I've learned that you're not doing precision anything if you can't measure it. If you can't measure it you're just guessing.

Without using QL you can find a good load, but you really don't know if that is the best load .

Having said all of that I will tell you that a chronograph will drive you a little batty because it will make you ask lots of questions. The main one is why are good groups hard to repeat? Not to mention that you will then start to focus on ESs and SDs as a means to achieve precision. Its a bridge we all have to cross, but that's where the land of precision is.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[savagedasher]

If I had one Christmas present I could have it would be QL . All winter long you can load any powder with any bullet barrel length or caliber. When spring comes you will know More about reloading then most. All the loads you find on here you can compare to QL. Do barrel time Look at power and pressure curve FPS . And never fire a shot. Only you can make that decision. MY vote is yes. Larry

 

[Phil3]

Judging from the replies here, I intend to get QuickLoad (and maybe the MagnetoSpeed v3 at the same time). I have a bit of a fascination with this kind of stuff, so it should be enjoyable to play with. But, with a chronograph and QL, I should be able to get to a good load. With my AR-15 in 223 that I built, I initially just started with the Sierra "accuracy" load shown in their manual. That resulted in 1/2" groups at 100 yards off a bipod. But, I felt I should try to develop a best load. And I guess that is where I am always a bit lost.

If one has a choice of say 5 bullets, 5 primer choices, 10 different powders, and 10 charge levels, 5 seating depths, that is a 12,500 possible combinations. Just exactly where does one start? What bullet, what powder, etc? It seems that QL will help with some of this, but what powder and bullets for the 223? There are a LOT! I am just wondering if there is some well accepted strategy for finding that best load, even with Quickload. For instance, I am shooting at 100 yards, with a 1:9 Krieger 22" barrel on the AR. I am using 52, 53 grain Sierra flat based bullets. Winchester brass and Remington 7-1/2 primers. Vhitavouri N133 powder. I am only using this because it is the Sierra accuracy load.

Thank you.

Phil

 

[savagedasher]

If you have a 1/2'' AR you have a very good load . Many would give any thing for a AR that shoots like that.
Larry

 

[jimcasey01]

Phil3, Quick Load is every bit as good as folks have told you, but it does take a bit of effort on your part. There is definitely a learning curve. If you expect to purchase a copy, and get great results from it immediately, it won't happen, and you will be very disappointed. You need to calibrate your copy to compensate for your lot of powder, bullets, case capacity, etc, etc. In a few months of use, you will be able to dial it in, for your equipment, at that time it is worth its weight in gold, so to speak. To expect it to be a "magic source of information" for your circumstances, with no calibration, you will be very disappointed. If you are a person that enjoys, or at least does, some testing, you will definitely benefit from using it. It allows you to do a lot of what if, regard powder, charge weight, bullets, etc. A chronograph to work with Quick Load is definitely the way to go. Whether you need a pricey chrono, I am not so certain. You will be calibrating as you go. So you will be adjusting for whatever chrono you choose. I use a lesser chrono, and have gotten great results. Good luck on your endeavor.

PS To qualify my response, I am not shooting at 1000 yards, but rather short to mid-range. For 1000 yard shooting, a better chrono may be of benefit to you. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[Phil3]

If you have a 1/2'' AR you have a very good load . Many would give any thing for a AR that shoots like that.
Larry

Thank you Larry. I built it to see how accurate I could make an AR-15. I do consider that project a success.

Phil