Question re F/L resizing & annealing

[Campbell]

Does f/l resizing work-harden the brass?

If it does, then should annealing be done after f/l resizing and not before?

 

[ireload2]

FL resizing work hardens the brass. The greater the cold displacement of the brass the more it is work hardened.

You can reduce work hardening by reducing the amount of sizing to a minimum.
The chamber and the FL die should be a close match so that both sizing and firing minimizes the working of the brass.
if you anneal after FL sizing the brass may creep a little.so there are no perfect techniques other than seating a bullet in an unsized case.
Some BPCR shooters never size a case.
Schuetzen shooters often seat the bullet in the throat and then load a case full of powder behind the bullet. Their cases are never sized.

If you have a tight neck chamber that does not let a fired case expand much you will not get much cold working either.

 

[Homerange]

Does f/l resizing work-harden the brass?

If it does, then should annealing be done after f/l resizing and not before?

Yep, as does traditional neck sizing, two workings of the brass for each case.
And the primary reason I went to LCD's for just a single working of the brass and little or in many cases no need to anneal for hunting purposes. (excuse pun)

Hand loading can be kept simple, believe it of not !

 

[Campbell]

FL resizing work hardens the brass. The greater the cold displacement of the brass the more it is work hardened.

You can reduce work hardening by reducing the amount of sizing to a minimum.
The chamber and the FL die should be a close match so that both sizing and firing minimizes the working of the brass.
if you anneal after FL sizing the brass may creep a little.so there are no perfect techniques other than seating a bullet in an unsized case.
Some BPCR shooters never size a case.
Schuetzen shooters often seat the bullet in the throat and then load a case full of powder behind the bullet. Their cases are never sized.

If you have a tight neck chamber that does not let a fired case expand much you will not get much cold working either.

Many sincere thanks for your post.

I think that I will go with the consensus of folk on here and anneal before f/l resizing.

 

[Mozella]

Many sincere thanks for your post.

I think that I will go with the consensus of folk on here and anneal before f/l resizing.

Don't over think this. Every time you distort your brass, it work hardens...........A LITTLE BIT. It's not all or nothing. It gets a little bit harder and harder each time you go through a sizing/firing cycle. Eventually, you'll get neck cracks.

Annealing reverses this process and returns the brass to a softer, less brittle, less "springy" condition. Done properly, you can expect your brass to be free from neck cracks until you have to throw it away because the primer pockets wear out. At least that's my experience. I anneal every time and I long ago stopped counting the number of times my brass has been fired.

In theory, it makes sense to be consistent in every aspect of our reloading routines. My personal routine is to lube and deprime/resize my brass when it comes back from the range. I shoot one at a time and keep the brass clean, so this works well for me. Then I wet SS tumble the brass to clean it and remove the lube. Next I anneal, prime, charge, and seat bullets.

My routine means that my brass is slightly (with the emphasis on "slightly") harder and more elastic ("springy") than yours when I size it because it has recently been fired. It follows that it is also slightly softer than yours when I seat the bullets because it has been recently annealed. That means, in theory, that need to use slightly different sizing die settings to achieve the same bullet seating grip than someone who anneals and then sizes.

The point is that it doesn't matter as long as you're consistent and take the proper steps to achieve case dimensions that work for YOU and case neck sizes that provide the bullet grip that works best for YOU.

The reason I use this procedure is that it avoids cleaning brass more than once per cycle, it avoids baking any residue inside the case necks since my brass is clean inside and out when I anneal it, and since some of the steps are carried out on a progressive press, it minimizes individual case handling.

 

[Campbell]

Don't over think this. Every time you distort your brass, it work hardens...........A LITTLE BIT. It's not all or nothing. It gets a little bit harder and harder each time you go through a sizing/firing cycle. Eventually, you'll get neck cracks.

Annealing reverses this process and returns the brass to a softer, less brittle, less "springy" condition. Done properly, you can expect your brass to be free from neck cracks until you have to throw it away because the primer pockets wear out. At least that's my experience. I anneal every time and I long ago stopped counting the number of times my brass has been fired.

In theory, it makes sense to be consistent in every aspect of our reloading routines. My personal routine is to lube and deprime/resize my brass when it comes back from the range. I shoot one at a time and keep the brass clean, so this works well for me. Then I wet SS tumble the brass to clean it and remove the lube. Next I anneal, prime, charge, and seat bullets.

My routine means that my brass is slightly (with the emphasis on "slightly") harder and more elastic ("springy") than yours when I size it because it has recently been fired. It follows that it is also slightly softer than yours when I seat the bullets because it has been recently annealed. That means, in theory, that need to use slightly different sizing die settings to achieve the same bullet seating grip than someone who anneals and then sizes.

The point is that it doesn't matter as long as you're consistent and take the proper steps to achieve case dimensions that work for YOU and case neck sizes that provide the bullet grip that works best for YOU.

The reason I use this procedure is that it avoids cleaning brass more than once per cycle, it avoids baking any residue inside the case necks since my brass is clean inside and out when I anneal it, and since some of the steps are carried out on a progressive press, it minimizes individual case handling.

Many thanks for your post!

I am still learning the process of precision reloading and I am naturally inclined to overthink!!!

I am going to give your order of process a go and anneal after resizing.

My range (Altcar, Merseyside, UK) is on a grassy/sandy surface, so I always SS tumble the cases before resizing which means that I need to clean again before annealing.

 

[riflewoman]

.

.
if you anneal after FL sizing the brass may creep a little.
.

How? In order for a metal to creep a stress has to be applied. What stress is applied to a case after it has been annealed. The initial part of annealing is internal stress relief.

Now that they’ve been softened, they will get banged up if you rattle them against each other, but that isn’t creep.

You can anneal after sizing and remove all the internal stress.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Any movement of the brass will make it harder. Less spring back. Custom made dies that don't allow the brass to move "that much" are the way to go. Factory chambers cut to SAAMI specs?? Not worth getting custom dies.
And NOW, your hand loading experience just got more complicated.

Hand loading can be kept simple, believe it of not !

And you can get your brass "too soft" to the point that the neck can be pushed down into the shoulder. Look for that happy medium.

 

[cw308]

I never got into annealing or nect turning , I wet tumble with SS Pins , I find trimming an seating using Redding dry lube with the beads . I F/L size .001 case headspace with the expander ball . I benchrest only . I use to over thinking also , I try to keep every round as close to exact in every way.

 

[Mozella]

Any movement of the brass will make it harder. Less spring back.......... snip.................

You're only half right. True, distorting brass will make it harder. This "work hardening" is what happens when we resize and fire our brass. It eventually causes neck cracks. It's what we reverse by annealing. But the harder brass has MORE "spring back", not less.

In the world of metals, the term "elastic deformation" refers to the ability of the metal to be deformed, bent, or distorted in some way and then return to it's original shape. In fact, if you make certain alloys of brass hard enough it becomes something known as "spring brass" which is an inexpensive product used to make springs where corrosion resistance and low cost is important.

If you bend brass past it's elastic deformation limit, it experiences what is called "plastic deformation" and it will NOT return to the original shape. This is what we do when we resize brass and it happens when we fire it. Annealing brass makes it softer, less "springy", and more prone to plastic deformation. It also makes it less likely to crack.

 

[Campbell]

How? In order for a metal to creep a stress has to be applied. What stress is applied to a case after it has been annealed. The initial part of annealing is internal stress relief.

Now that they’ve been softened, they will get banged up if you rattle them against each other, but that isn’t creep.

You can anneal after sizing and remove all the internal stress.

Hi RW

Many thanks for your post.

I have only been precision reloading for about 3 years and realise that many of you folk probably have forgotten more than I will learn, so please forgive my repeated questions.

In simple terms, to a reloading novice, are you advocating annealing before, or after f/l resizing? Or does it not matter?

Many thanks.

Cam

 

[riflewoman]

Hi RW

Many thanks for your post.

I have only been precision reloading for about 3 years and realise that many of you folk probably have forgotten more than I will learn, so please forgive my repeated questions.

In simple terms, to a reloading novice, are you advocating annealing before, or after f/l resizing? Or does it not matter?

Many thanks.

Cam

Whatever you feel comfortable with. If you fl size you add maybe 10% cold work to the brass The Arsenals mouth anneal just before priming and they don’t FL size the brass after it’s formed. Me I prefer to follow the Arsenal process when I anneal.

 

[kvd]

My personal routine is to lube and deprime/resize my brass when it comes back from the range. I shoot one at a time and keep the brass clean, so this works well for me. Then I wet SS tumble the brass to clean it and remove the lube. Next I anneal, prime, charge, and seat bullets.

This is essentially how I do it with the exception that I use ultrasonic cleaning in lieu of SS tumbling for cleaning the brass. I'm hoping to achieve the most consistent neck grip and bullet release so annealing after F/L sizing and neck sizing seems to make more sense. Returning the neck area to a uniform hardness should aid round to round uniformity.

 

[cw308]

I tried the Redding SType bushing dies to adjust neck tension , didn't care for the system runout was poor . Went back to standard F/L sizing die .

 

[Campbell]

Good Grief!!!

I love this forum. I ask a question, get an answer and then end up with more questions!

@ cw308: I use the Redding SType Bushing Die my and my runout is approx. .003 measured at the tip of the bullet. Is that unacceptable? I tend to let the bushing run more freely that the recommended 1/16 of a turn.

@ riflewoman: Please will you let me know what "Arsenal Process" is please.

Cam

 

[Mozella]

This is essentially how I do it with the exception that I use ultrasonic cleaning in lieu of SS tumbling for cleaning the brass. I'm hoping to achieve the most consistent neck grip and bullet release so annealing after F/L sizing and neck sizing seems to make more sense. Returning the neck area to a uniform hardness should aid round to round uniformity.

I agree.

We all believe that uniformity is very important when it comes to making good ammo. It is interesting that Bryan Litz (a careful tester to be sure) tested annealed-every-time brass against brass that had been fired 10 times and he could not detect any difference. Note that he did not claim that there was no difference; only that he could not detect any statistically significant difference.

Nevertheless I continue to anneal every time. With my inexpensive DIY annealing machine with an auto feed system, it's completely painless and I can't help but believe it is one of those many steps we take which when considered alone is difficult or impossible to test properly, but when added together makes the difference between winning and second place. The data collection noise produced by discharging a weapon operated by a human in order to deliver a bullet to a target a hundred yards or more away as it travels through an unknown atmosphere includes enough uncertainty that it is impossible to gather valid test data when looking for a tiny tiny potential improvement. The test data gets drowned out by the statistical noise.

One thing I didn't mention before is my last minute mini-sizing routine. I prime on a progressive press with a DIY auto case collating and feeding system, which is VERY nice. During the priming stage I simultaneously run an expanding mandrel down the neck to take care of any potential out of round condition caused by bulk handling cases during the previous processes, including wet SS tumbling which involves a lot of case-to-case collisions.

The highly polished mandrel is inserted without lube and is only about .0005" larger than the neck ID produced when I sized the brass. In other words, this second neck sizing operation is just a tiny tweak to produce the desired neck tension and to insure roundness. It is also painless because it happens during the priming stroke without any extra effort other than putting the die into the press. The required force and perceived friction is nearly negligible. After priming, the charging and bullet seating is all done by hand, so in theory the bullets go into a perfectly sized and perfectly round case neck.

 

[riflewoman]

For arsenal process here are the steps involved.

 

[Webster]

Whatever you feel comfortable with. If you fl size you add maybe 10% cold work to the brass The Arsenals mouth anneal just before priming and they don’t FL size the brass after it’s formed. Me I prefer to follow the Arsenal process when I anneal.

What do you think of the theory floating around that holding the case in the sizing die for a few seconds longer makes it take a set to a slightly different dimension than in and out of the die quickly? At least one guy says he can measure more consistent shoulder bump. Doesn’t sound reasonable to me.

 

[riflewoman]

Im not sure. Low temp creep is a thing I suppose but likely what is happening is visco flow of the lubricant. Low temp creep takes longer than a few seconds. What I more likely happening by taking a second or two before withdrawing the case is actually just reaching the true upper limit of ram travel. At 60 or 100 strokes per minute the Arsenals don’t believe in the creep much either.

 

[cw308]

Campbell
I set up my bushing die with the same amount of play in the bushing , I don't neck turn my brass so I do use the expander ball , I even changed to the ball to the Redding carbide ball as a upgrade an still my runout was the same as yours . Using the RCBS Standard full length die , nothing fancy , my runout was .001 I do lightly lube the inside of the necks with RCBS Case lube with a Q Tip . Using the Redding Competition Shellholder Set I can adjust my die with full contact from zero on up for case headspace . I set mine no more then .002 . I can't adjust my neck grip using the standard die which is why I tried the bushing die . I'm using thick brass FC , HSM and ADI . Changing neck tension didn't change my group . I switched from dry to wet tumbling after 25+ years so after sizing and trimming an cleaning again I use dry neck lube , seating is smooth. I seat with the Redding Competition Seating Die . Reloading is a great hobby , trying new things to make accurate reloads buying gages to check our work , it never ends . Be Well.

Chris