Question about ski type bipods

[MikeMcCasland]

Gents,

I'm just getting into F-Class shooting, and have two relatively identical rifles; one chambered in .223 for F-T/R, and another chambered in .260 for F-Open. Both rifles have McMillan A5s for stocks and picatinny rails up front for bi-pods.


I'm currently running Atlas bi-pods on both rigs, and a smaller Protektor rear bag, but it's fairly clear that in order to be in contention, I'll probably need to step up to a competition specific bi-pod (such as a Joy Pod, Phoenix, Rempel etc.)


My question is, can you run these with a curved stock "heel" (whatever the proper term is for the portion of the stock opposite the comb) like the A5s have?


My fear is that on recoil the rifle will get thrown off elevation because of the curvature in the rear of the stock; basically, I don't want to end up fighting/re-positioning the rifle on every shot. Is that something you guys just deal with or what? It's extremely easy to do with an Atlas and smaller rear bag, you basically move the bag around to adjust for elevation, but I'm thinking with some of these larger bipods (that lend themselves to larger rear bags), folks are moving the rifle vs. the bag.


Anyone have any words of wisdom?

 

[CharlieNC]

While you are shooting the rear bag will settle after several rounds, no matter what you try do do to stop it. My Ftr stock with a no taper butt required squeezing the sides (not ears) of the bag to re-establish the proper height, which is detracting during a match. I cut a couple of degrees taper on the butt such that pushing the rifle forward/backward yields good vertical fine-tuning without excessive sensitivity upon recoil. Once setup, no adjustments of the bipod or bag are required during a match. This is more appealing to me than fooling around with a joypod while shooting.

 

[dcali]

The ideal setup (in my opinion) is a shallow-angled toe. The McMillan XIT is just about perfect for TR. too much angle makes it finicky to adjust your elevation by sliding the rifle backward. No angle means you need to adjust the bipod elevation or squeeze the bag.

The A5’s hook is not ideal from my perspective if you’re using a ski bipod. I bet you could make it work, though.

Don’t be afraid to try with the atlas and a tactical-style squeeze bag. I know at least one shooter with similar gear who does very well. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

Either way, dealing with elevation is part of shooting TR. You can’t set it and forget it - you just have to find a way to adapt to changes that’s repeatable that doesn’t drive you nuts. Most shooters use an angled stock toe with a fairly tightly packed rear bag and a ski bipod.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I've shot McMillan A5s exclusively for years in F-TR. I started using an Atlas V8 bipod, but very soon switched to a Long Range Accuracy bipod, which has a much wider footprint than the early Atlas bipods. Atlas currently sells a similar bipod, the 5-H, but it is quite a bit heavier than the LRA bipod. In any event, I am one of the few remaining F-TR shooters (possibly on the entire planet ) that still uses a "traditional" bipod, and I pre-load it very heavily. That is just what has always worked for me.

Most F-TR shooters have transitioned to the ski-, sled-type bipods, and there are some potential advantages to these types of setups. They typically have a very wide footprint, which is good for stability. They can track very straight, although that is of course, dependent on the shooter. The Joypod even comes with an adjustable aiming lever.

Nonetheless, there is a fundamental difference between how these two types of bipods are typically used in F-TR. With a "traditional" pre-loaded bipod, it is most common to use some kind of squeezable rear bean bag rest, so you can easily adjust your elevation. The key to consistency with this type of a setup is applying the exact same forward pressure on the bipod every time which is not as easy as it may seem.

The ski-type bipods are generally used with a sand-filled "eared" rear bag and are not normally pre-loaded. The key to this type of setup is that it must freely track very straight back and forth during the recoil impulse. That is why they typically have a ski-type foot. In combination with the eared rear bag, the rifle is free to track straight back and forth. This type of shooting is often incorrectly referred to as "free recoil". It is not, according to the rules the rifle must be shouldered. Nonetheless, it often called that. In contrast to a squeezable rear bag, the eared types are generally not used that way, elevation being controlled on the bipod itself at the front of the rifle, either with an elevation wheel of some sort, leg adjustments, or an aiming lever.

To [finally] get to your question, the toe on the A5 stock has a fairly sharp angle. IMO - it does not work well as designed with a ski-type bipod, because the barrel of the rifle ends up pointing 30 feet above the target at the end of the recoil impulse. You have to shoulder the rifle forward to bring it back on target, and it almost always seems to require a lot of fiddling to get it back to exactly where it was. The toe on more typical stocks used with ski-type bipods has only a very small angle. It's just enough you can move the rifle forward/backward a tiny bit for minor elevation adjustments, but not nearly so much as is found with an A5.

The two solutions to this issue if you really like the feel of an A5 stock like I do, are to use a rear beanbag and a wider footprint "traditional" bipod, like the LRA or 5-H, and pre-load it at some level. Alternatively, you can make or purchase a bag rider of some sort that is attached to the toe of the A5 stock, which removes most of the angle, so that it will work much better with a ski-type bipod and eared rear bag. Either approach will work, which is best will largely depend on your preferences.

Which type of bipod you use and how competitive it is, is largely up to you. As I mentioned, the percentage of ski-type setups currently far outweigh the more traditional bipods. Nonetheless, a wide stance traditional bipod can be very competitive if you take the time to learn how to shoot it. I'm a big believer that being comfortable behind the rifle is half the battle. If you're not comfortable behind the rifle, it will always detract from your focus and potentially adversely affect your scores. So I would recommend trying both ways, if possible. If you decide to go with a ski-type bipod setup, you are going to be transitioning over from a traditional setup. IMO, that is about the biggest change you can make in F-TR, in terms of "feel", so be sure you try such a setup out before dropping hundreds on something you may not like, or be comfortable with. There should be folks at one of your local matches that will let you get behind their setup to see what it feels like. None of the newer design bipods are cheap, even the wide footprint "traditional" bipods cost well over $400, so be sure you like it and are comfortable with it before dropping a lot of cash.

 

[Jennb]

Sometimes you have to decide on your bipod based on equipment weight. Duplin and joypod are very close in weight. Phoenix is heavier. Sounds to me like you might want to try a flexpod. As was said earlier ask a few people at a match to let you check out their equipment. That is one thing about F Class, most folks are willing to help out.

 

[kzin]

Gents,

I'm just getting into F-Class shooting, and have two relatively identical rifles; one chambered in .223 for F-T/R, and another chambered in .260 for F-Open. Both rifles have McMillan A5s for stocks and picatinny rails up front for bi-pods.


I'm currently running Atlas bi-pods on both rigs, and a smaller Protektor rear bag, but it's fairly clear that in order to be in contention, I'll probably need to step up to a competition specific bi-pod (such as a Joy Pod, Phoenix, Rempel etc.)


My question is, can you run these with a curved stock "heel" (whatever the proper term is for the portion of the stock opposite the comb) like the A5s have?


My fear is that on recoil the rifle will get thrown off elevation because of the curvature in the rear of the stock; basically, I don't want to end up fighting/re-positioning the rifle on every shot. Is that something you guys just deal with or what? It's extremely easy to do with an Atlas and smaller rear bag, you basically move the bag around to adjust for elevation, but I'm thinking with some of these larger bipods (that lend themselves to larger rear bags), folks are moving the rifle vs. the bag.


Anyone have any words of wisdom?

Don't forget that the joypod gives you the option for neither, at least for final adjustment.

My experience with a great deal of experimentation(mostly with 22lr) is that free recoiling with the angled stock will always cost a point eventually. Hard-holding I don't clearly see a problem. If you want to take the joypod to the extreme of aiming totally with the stick and 'free recoiling' then you want a level rear stock.

 

[swd]

I shot a lot of F Open with both a McMillan A5 and Manners T5a with a Rempel. Both have very similar toe widths and angles. I'm a rear bag squeezer and I actually prefer a little angle on the toe for elevation adjustment. I always found the set up easy to shoot and have no problem shooting midrange HM with that set up. It does take some practice to get the gun handling down and figure out what each gun likes but after that I don't feel like it really ever cost me anything over a front rest. Maybe one point in every 200-300. The McM A5 seemed to like a hard hold and plenty of cheek pressure and I bet your 260 will too. The 223 should be a joy to shoot off it.

In some ways I actually enjoy shooting Open with Rempel over a front rest. I feel it made me pay more attention to gun handling and makes you feel more connected and part of the overall shooting equation. And it's a lot of fun when you beat guys shooting off a $1200 rest! Even though I'm shooting off a front rest now, I definitely feel the Rempel/A5 set up made me a better shooter. I still have one rifle set up in a T5a and might start shooting it again.

For TR the Rempel will likely be too heavy but there are several bi pods that are almost exactly the same at half the weight.

Get out and that set up. If your not shooting good scores you just need more practice, not a new rig. Enjoy.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

I really appreciate the replies, and they confirm a lot of what I was thinking.

To add a little clarity/context to the situation, I had the opportunity to shoot a JoyPod (Gen 2 or 3 I think) this weekend on my 3rd string. In the first two strings off my Atlas, I'd shot a 192-6x and a 191-6x; the string with the JP I ended up shooting a 180-4x. To be fair to the JoyPod, it had a bit of an issue (something about some screws coming out; causing the joystick to flip up/lose position when fired), and I was running a cheek pad/cartridge holder where the straps kept the rifle from tracking in the rear bag correctly. It ended up being a bit of a calamity as I was fighting the setup the entire string; it most assuredly cost me points. In hind-sight I'd of pulled the cheek pad, and pulled the rear swivel stud out of the stock so it could track.

That said, the experience still made me wonder how you guys were handling the rifles under recoil. It became clear to me it was a very different style than the one I've been using, and made me wonder how effective a sled/ski type pod would be with so much toe angle.

As SWD pointed out, the idea of transitioning to a wider footprint bi-pod is appealing, because I'd like to run it in T/R (long-term) and Open (short term) to initially offset the cost of a SEB front rest. It's also become clear that you gain an advantage over traditional bi-pods, and that's something I don't want to give up, because lord knows I can't just rely on talent to outshoot half of these guys .

Also to your point SWD, my .260 hops like crazy if I try and free-recoil it; feels like I'm forced into a hard-hold/heavy cheek pressure.

As far as weight, I've been thinking of going with a Phoenix. Both these rifles were "designed/thought out" when I was planning to shoot in more PRS oriented competitions, and as such I'm running shorter (i.e. not 32") Sendero contour barrels; only after I got the rifles did I start shooting F-Class, so I've got a lot of wiggle room on weight (at least until I re-barrel).

You guys have given me a lot to think about; I really do appreciate ya'll taking the time.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[swd]

You just have to experiment with what each rifle likes as far as cheek pressure, grip and shoulder pressure. With the McM A5 I found moderate hand and shoulder but almost couldn't have too much cheek pressure. The gun just shot better and better with more. My rear bag may or may not have something to do with too. One of the best 308 TR shooters in our state says his rifle likes the same thing so it's necessarily out of the ordinary. Now my Manners T5a is completely different, it likes light pressure everywhere. Man handle it and it tells me immediately it doesn't like it. Just experiment and listen to the gun.

 

[swd]

My rig for the CA State mid range championships earlier this year. 3rd place.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

@swd - That is supremely helpful. You're running the exact same rear bag, and to your point that manners looks about the same as an A5 in the toe.

 

[memilanuk]

Also to your point SWD, my .260 hops like crazy if I try and free-recoil it; feels like I'm forced into a hard-hold/heavy cheek pressure.

Try experimenting with rotating your lower body the direction that the bipod is hopping e.g. if the gun moves to the left every shot, move your hips/legs to the left. Next shot, if it's still off to the left, move more to the left. You should be able to find the 'neutral' spot where the gun tracks correctly - though if you over-do it, you may find the gun starting to move the other way i.e. to the *right*, at which point you need to move back that way.

In an ideal setup, the gun should stay within your target frame @ 1k under recoil - though if it's moving say, a half target more, I wouldn't sweat it too much at first. As long as it's close enough to minimize the chance of lining back up on the wrong target, if the shots are going in the middle...

It's a very different approach from the tactical/practical straight-behind-the-gun method, that's for sure.

 

[BP1]

I really appreciate the replies, and they confirm a lot of what I was thinking.

To add a little clarity/context to the situation, I had the opportunity to shoot a JoyPod (Gen 2 or 3 I think) this weekend on my 3rd string. In the first two strings off my Atlas, I'd shot a 192-6x and a 191-6x; the string with the JP I ended up shooting a 180-4x. To be fair to the JoyPod, it had a bit of an issue (something about some screws coming out; causing the joystick to flip up/lose position when fired), and I was running a cheek pad/cartridge holder where the straps kept the rifle from tracking in the rear bag correctly. It ended up being a bit of a calamity as I was fighting the setup the entire string; it most assuredly cost me points. In hind-sight I'd of pulled the cheek pad, and pulled the rear swivel stud out of the stock so it could track.

That said, the experience still made me wonder how you guys were handling the rifles under recoil. It became clear to me it was a very different style than the one I've been using, and made me wonder how effective a sled/ski type pod would be with so much toe angle.

As SWD pointed out, the idea of transitioning to a wider footprint bi-pod is appealing, because I'd like to run it in T/R (long-term) and Open (short term) to initially offset the cost of a SEB front rest. It's also become clear that you gain an advantage over traditional bi-pods, and that's something I don't want to give up, because lord knows I can't just rely on talent to outshoot half of these guys .

Also to your point SWD, my .260 hops like crazy if I try and free-recoil it; feels like I'm forced into a hard-hold/heavy cheek pressure.

As far as weight, I've been thinking of going with a Phoenix. Both these rifles were "designed/thought out" when I was planning to shoot in more PRS oriented competitions, and as such I'm running shorter (i.e. not 32") Sendero contour barrels; only after I got the rifles did I start shooting F-Class, so I've got a lot of wiggle room on weight (at least until I re-barrel).

You guys have given me a lot to think about; I really do appreciate ya'll taking the time.

Thanks,
Mike

Mike I also have a flexpod to if you wanna try it.

 

[Papa Charlie]

I recently switched from the Duplin Rorer bipod to the Joypod. Haven't had a chance to shoot the JP yet but looking forward to it.
When I first got my Duplin, which is a ski type of bipod I was switching from a Harris bipod. It was a bit of a learning process. I was still getting a pretty good jump and found that I had to change the rear bag as well to take full advantage of the Duplin. The bipod and rear bag have to work as a system. Providing a smooth and level running surface to enable the rifle to recoil properly. This took a little time and learning, but eventually paid off as my scores improved. My top score F-TR at 500 yards was 200-16X. Prior to this the best I had done was 195-11X.
One thing I did not care for was having to adjust the rear bag for elevation and for fine windage adjustments.
I am looking forward to the JP and the fine adjustment through the joy stick without having to touch the bag or the gun. Too often resulting in me pushing the rifle butt to the side for those fine adjustments. Something that will affect the recoil and cause the rifle to jump instead of track smoothly between the ears.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Mike I also have a flexpod to if you wanna try it.

Hey Otis,

I really appreciate that; I may take you up on it. Going to roll down to Bayou on the 16th and give the Atlas another go in F-T/R. After that, I may take you up on it.

 

[Jennb]

I recently switched from the Duplin Rorer bipod to the Joypod. Haven't had a chance to shoot the JP yet but looking forward to it.
When I first got my Duplin, which is a ski type of bipod I was switching from a Harris bipod. It was a bit of a learning process. I was still getting a pretty good jump and found that I had to change the rear bag as well to take full advantage of the Duplin. The bipod and rear bag have to work as a system. Providing a smooth and level running surface to enable the rifle to recoil properly. This took a little time and learning, but eventually paid off as my scores improved. My top score F-TR at 500 yards was 200-16X. Prior to this the best I had done was 195-11X.
One thing I did not care for was having to adjust the rear bag for elevation and for fine windage adjustments.
I am looking forward to the JP and the fine adjustment through the joy stick without having to touch the bag or the gun. Too often resulting in me pushing the rifle butt to the side for those fine adjustments. Something that will affect the recoil and cause the rifle to jump instead of track smoothly between the ears.

Dont know why you were adjusting the rear bag for elevation adjustments. I have been shooting a Duplin for 2 years and have never had to touch it for elevation.

 

[Papa Charlie]

Dont know why you were adjusting the rear bag for elevation adjustments. I have been shooting a Duplin for 2 years and have never had to touch it for elevation.

I have a hard time reaching the adjustment knob on the bipod. So to make fine adjustments on each shot I squeeze the rear bag more or less to make the fine adjustments.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I have a hard time reaching the adjustment knob on the bipod. So to make fine adjustments on each shot I squeeze the rear bag more or less to make the fine adjustments.

Get yourself a section of an aluminum arrow shaft (or similar lightweight tubing) that will fit right over one of the spokes on the Duplin elevation wheel and allow you to adjust it without getting out of position behind the rifle.

 

[Jennb]

With the right rear bag all you do is move your stock forward or back just a little. That is unless your stock has no angle on it.

 

[Papa Charlie]

Stock is flat. I already sold the Duplin so not an issue. But when I did have the Duplin I tried a handle. To me it was a pain in the ars.
Main reason I moved to the Joypod. It is the next best thing to an F Class Open rest but for F-TR.