Question about Savage barrel nut.

[Kenny474]

I have a few Savage's that I use as switch barrels and I am tired of adjusting the barrel nut every time I swap barrels. I have a thought on how i can make my life a bit easier and possibly eliminate the need to adjust the barrel nut when the barrels are only used on one action and would like to hear your thoughts on it, as I think it may work. But since the idea is so simple I'm sure someone has thought of it already, and since I have never heard of it being done I figure it's not going to work.

I have been thinking about a second nut to use as a jam nut against the barrel nut and using Loc-Tite to secure them in place, as I will have less chance of messing up the threads this way. I figure if the nut is stationary it will act as a shoulder and allow me to remove and install the barrel without adjusting the jam nut for headspace every time I remove and install the barrel.

I have also considered using set screws through the OD of the barrel nut, but this will surely damage the threads. But if it was to work, it really wouldn't matter if the threads were damaged.

So am I on the right track, or is this an idea best left alone? I guess I could just try it and see how it does?

 

[robbor]

Thats the good and the bad part. Everyone thinks they can swap barrels constantly and its really easy, but not quite that easy. To me its no big deal to have to set the headspace but removing the scope is a pain and re sighting in. I have heard of a few guys using epoxy,locktite, JBweld and gluing a nut on each barrel. Then ya probably need to buy a seocnd wrench also to cut part of it out for getting around the scope also. There is no easy way to do a lock nut espically if you dont have machining skills and tools. Really id tell you is youd be much better of picking one cartridge(a smaller one) and learing to shoot it well and being very farmiliar with the rifle and the ballistics. 2nd option is to just buy another savage. I know the feeling i have 2 savages and probably 5 barrels . I fight the urge to swap barrels.

 

[Kenny474]

First off, I work in a machine shop and I am in the process of getting my own lathe and mill, so machining is no issue.

Second, if I can lock the nut in place, I can use a barrel vise and not have to ever touch the barrel nut again. Or I could machine flats on the end of the barrel and just use a wrench to loosen and tighten it.

And I can get the spanner on my barrel nut with the scopes in place anyway. I have one scope up in the air a good bit, and the others have rather small objectives and I can squeeze the wrench on.

I am just tired of needing to set the headspace.

 

[StraightPipes]

I was going to post something, but I removed it. My way was too involved. You made me think for a moment, this is good......

JB weld your nut to the tennon. Use the slow stuff, install and head-space your barrel and let it cure. (on the gun)

Heat will release the nut when your ready. A "fine" wire wheel will clean the barrel up later on.

Im just thinking here, I could get a real bashing for thinking like this.

Come on now, this couldnt be any worse than gluing your BAT action into your stock...........

Your just gluing the nut to the barrel....... how many nuts do you have?

 

[bozo699]

Kenny,
I have no idea why it wouldn't work,as a matter of a fact I am sure it will. In the future machine the flats on the end of the barrel you were talking about and do away with the nut (as you purchase new barrels) as for the old barrels set your head space drill two hole's through your barrel nut and into the threads of the barrel,use brass set screws and install,remove the barrel and install a third set screw evenly spaced on the opposite side. machine the flats on your barrel or continue using your barrel wrench. I have not done this myself but can't understand why it wouldn't work. As you know I want to build a switch barrel gun out of my f-class savage and you might as well be the ginnia pig ;D
Wayne.

 

[Kenny474]

Wayne, if I can be the test pilot and we can actually get some benefit from it, then I am all for it.

I am going to take one of my actions and a barrel and mess with it a bit and maybe make a set of two nuts to act as jam nuts. I will just try a few different ways of doing this and see which one is most repeatable and run with it. Once i have it figured out, I will send you details so you can copy it. Or if the jam nut system works, I will machine a set of nuts for you and drop them in the mail so you can try them.

But I will figure this out one way or another. Then I just need to machine my actions so they all have the same headspace with the different barrels.

Maybe if I find the action that has the shortest distance from the bolt face to the action face and machine the others to have identical dimensions I will still be able to swap barrels between actions? I will need to cut all the bolt faces so they are the same depth prior to cutting the actions. But if I cut the bolt heads so they are all have identical depth to the face, and then cut all the actions to have the same distance from the bolt to the action face, then all the barrels should be interchangeable after I install permanent nuts, correct?

I don't know for sure, but it seems as though it should work.

 

[Kenny474]

I was going to post something, but I removed it. My way was too involved. You made me think for a moment, this is good......

JB weld your nut to the tennon. Use the slow stuff, install and head-space your barrel and let it cure. (on the gun)

Heat will release the nut when your ready. A "fine" wire wheel will clean the barrel up later on.

Im just thinking here, I could get a real bashing for thinking like this.

Come on now, this couldnt be any worse than gluing your BAT action into your stock...........

Your just gluing the nut to the barrel....... how many nuts do you have?

This is also a good method that has potential for success. Thank you.

 

[camac]

Guys, i have a few savages and several barrels and my latest setup is 2 shouldered switch barrels for my LRPV repeater and target action. Both actions take both barrels and both bolts and actions are adjusted to same headspace (actually 1 thou difference between each bolt but I like that as a simple bolt change can adjust headspace) - took a bit of work but I got there. Even with a shouldered barrel you still need to keep an eye on headspace though. Savage has a 20 tpi thread so every 360 degrees moves it 50 thou or 7.2 degrees for a thou. A torque wrench or alternatavely an aligning notch or mark is a handy tool to keep headspace the same. The big advantage of shoulder is not having to remove the scope, although you don't have that issue Kenny. I take a field headspace gauge with me just to check.
My concerns with any of the above suggestions wouldn't be whether they would work, I am sure they would but whether you can put enough pressure on to hold barrel properly without loosening lock nut, set screws or JB weld.
The Factory savage barrels have a fairly loose thread. They are certainly not a tolerance fit. They literally hang down on thread until you tighten the nut. Tightening up the lock nut nice and tight helps pull it all up into line and square up the barrel. Think of the 30 inch lump of steel you are actually holding "up" with the nut. If you do not do it tight it is unlikely to be square and accuracy can suffer. A good thread, nice square shoulder, done up nice and firm helps repeatability on zero's and accuracy.
Kenny, If you can get your spanner on under scope I would think of just putting an aligning notch on barrel and action and do it up on a shell to there, Then give it a good whack on the spanner. Job done!

 

[Kenny474]

I worked on my "barrel nut" project for a bit today, and I think I am making some progress.

I made a new barrel nut from 416 Stainless similar to the factory unit, but machined it to be smooth without the grooves for the spanner to fit onto and has 4 drilled and tapped holes for set screws. I then made a jam nut, from 416 as well, to go between the barrel nut and the action. As a last step, I extended the threads down the barrel a bit so I would have plenty of room for the jam nut to fit.

Now I need to test the new barrel and jam nuts and see if they will handle being torqued or if I will need to add the set screws, and I may even add loc-tite as well just to be sure it stays put.

I have been considering using set screws long enough to actually go into small holes in the side of the barrel. I figure maybe 1/16" deep or a little more to maybe 3/32", but enough to get through the threads and into solid steel, and turning the threads off the ends of the set screws so they have a nice, tight fit in the holes in the barrel.
Will I have any issue with weakening the barrel with holes if they are only 1/16" to 3/32" deep measured from the outside of the threads?

I also made two new spanner wrenches that will essentially clamp onto the barrel and jam nuts, similar to the wrenches used on the smooth barrel nuts on the new Savages. They are very simple and were cut from .25" mild steel plate, but they will serve their purpose.

With the amount of time I have invested in this already, it had better work. I could have swapped 10 barrels or more for the time I have in making the parts.

I am working on a larger clamp-on wrench to use to tighten and remove the barrels, basically a barrel vise with a long handle. Hopefully it will allow me to swap the barrels with the action in the stock, and so far it looks very promising.

 

[bozo699]

Kenny,
I don't think you would have any problems drilling the holes in the barrel That is why I mentioned it but before I started to drill ask your smith what he thinks or call that smith that specializes in savages you were telling me about.
Wayne

 

[camac]

Don't go deeper than thread depth and you should be fine. No need to go deeper anyway.

 

[rchouser]

Please keep us posted. A true switch barrel would be wonderful. rc

 

[dtucker]

Would it be possable to have a recoil lug pinned to the receiver and have your barrels threaded and chamberd to the action. The only problem i see with doing it that way is that your barrels would only work for that action. What do you think?

 

[Kenny474]

Dtucker, I am trying to figure out how I can make 2 actions identical in regards to headspacing the same with a single barrel. I actually have a post on it in the gunsmithing section.

As for pinning the lug, it will need to be done if I use it as a switch barrel. And I plan for all future barrels to be shouldered like would be on a Remington action, hence my desire to make my actions have identical, or as close as possible, dimensions.

It has been suggested that I could just surface grind the lug to adjust the headspace, that way I could use the barrels on both actions.

 

[jlmurphy]

I have done the switch barrel set up with a Savage action before. Locktite is sufficient to hold the nut in place, although I have also used hex nuts with set screws. I wanted to have complete repeatability on point of impact. I ran into difficulty with the recoil lug not always seating exactly the same, even when pinned, there were too many surfaces. Headspace was fine, but POI moved more than I liked. This was in a metal stock, and I eventually machined a recoil lug into the mag cut out and made it into a single shot, but repeatability was good. Picatinny style bases will give good return to zero, so the scope can be removed each switch. Headspace isn't an issue if the barrel nut doesn't rotate, be sure to have the barrel nut tight when the Locktite cures.

 

[jo191145]

Recoil lug into the mag well. Bravo!!

 

[camac]

I have done the switch barrel set up with a Savage action before. Locktite is sufficient to hold the nut in place, although I have also used hex nuts with set screws. I wanted to have complete repeatability on point of impact. I ran into difficulty with the recoil lug not always seating exactly the same, even when pinned, there were too many surfaces. Headspace was fine, but POI moved more than I liked. This was in a metal stock, and I eventually machined a recoil lug into the mag cut out and made it into a single shot, but repeatability was good. Picatinny style bases will give good return to zero, so the scope can be removed each switch. Headspace isn't an issue if the barrel nut doesn't rotate, be sure to have the barrel nut tight when the Locktite cures.

The recoil lug is one issue (I agree nice approach - love to see some photos) that needs to be handled (that is why I remove the action screws when I switch my barrel - else bedding on lug is compromised when switching.) The second for repeatability (and accuracy) I will reinforce the importance of the barrel nut being done up tight. The barrel hangs down on the threads on the savage and doing it up tight on shoulder or barrel nut raises it up. The difference betwen doing it up at 15 ft lbs and 60 ft lbs can make a big difference for repeatability. If you go this approach the barrel nut will have to be "very tightly" bonded to barrel to withold 60 ft lbs plus. The pressure is bput back through nut by holding barrel in vice instead of lock nut with wrench.

As far as matching the two actions to same barrel. I machined the face of the bolt and locking lugs on both actions (worth doing to square up action anyway). Not much was needed to be taken off.

 

[Kenny474]

I have been playing with my new barrel lock nut system, and the double nut and set screw design seems to withstand apprx. 60ft/lbs of torque applied to the barrel without any movement or other issues. I simply made a small barrel vise with a flange on the bottom piece and TIG welded a 1/2" drive socket to it to attach a 1/2" drive torque wrench. I set the torque wrench to 55ft/lbs, as the added length of the vise will add leverage, and torqued the barrel in place. I had previously added loc-tite to the nuts, torqued the lock nuts in place, and also torqued the set screws, for proper headspace and removed the barrel.

I removed the barrel several times and reinstalled it with the same torque setting, and my reference points on the action, lug, nuts and barrel lined up perfectly every time, and also headspaced properly as checked with go and no-go gauges and a fired case as well. So it seems this system may be able to give repeatable results after all.

Would it be easier to just use a shouldered barrel? I would have to say yes. But it will allow those with standard type barrels to use them in switch barrel fashion without the hassle of removing the scope and action from the stock and needing to fuss with the barrel nut for headspace every time.

I am going to make a set for another barrel and see how that goes, as it should work in the same way.

All of my future barrels will have a shoulder and a hex nut machined on the end of the barrel for ease of use. But if I need to use a pre-fit barrel and want it to have repeatable headspace for switch barrel use, it's nice to know I can just set it and forget it.