Proper Use of Redding S Dies

[Elkbane]

GUys,
I need some help using Redding S type bushing dies - I'm obviously doing something wrong.

I have bushings for two different calibers 2 thou less than diameter of the loaded neck and I'm getting the same thing on both. I'm guessing I have the dies set up wrong.

The symptom is that in the middle of the neck down to the shoulder, the die produces the correct diameter and is very concentric. At the case neck, however I get a swaged or beveled,outward) shape, starting probably 15 thousand from the neck.

The neck opening is about 2 thousands larger than center of the neck. What am I doing wrong? I've tried the bushing numbers up and down, get the same effect on 7mm-08 and 260 Rem cases,different bushings of course).
ELkbane

 

[janderson0]

Are you using the button?

Jim

 

[Elkbane]

There's a threaded stem in the center, but it's way smaller than the ID of the case and not hitting the case mouth, either going in or coming out. These are "S" type bushing neck sizing dies.
Elkbane

 

[spclark]

You're using some kind of lubrication,very sparingly!) on your necks when sizing?

The die you're using isn't for sizing the case body or pushing the shoulder back, just neck sizing?,You need that threaded center shaft to hold the bushing stop in place; typically with neck bushings you don't want the sizing button on that shaft as the neck bushing should be all that contacts the neck.) I ask only 'cause I use the die style that does size the case body as well as bump the shoulder back .001" - .002" and also holds the neck bushings you're taking about.

I'll hazard a guess here that you're using the neck bushings to size too much of the necks. My experience,limited, but I get consistent, concentric results now for five cartridges, using the same style of dies for all) tells me the sizing bushings are only to be used to size down the first .060" - .100" of the neck from the mouth down.

If you have your dies adjusted to push the necks in all the way to the shoulder, the force the necks are being subjected to on the bottom of the stroke is distorting the sized necks closer to the case mouth.

Make sure you're putting the bushings into the die properly too - one end has a slightly greater radius going into the bore than the other. I used to think it was the end stamped with the size but now I'm not so sure; I'll check with Redding & get back to y'all.

If your chamber isn't cut to a Very Tight neck tolerance and your cases extract easy after firing, the fired necks should fit back into your chamber OK even without sizing. Running the necks into a bushing is only intended to reduce the neck diameter enough to hold the bullet in the next load. Sizing the full length of the neck is unnecessary IMHO.

 

[billmo]

Elkbane, I agree with clark. In most cases I only size app. .150 of the neck with my bushing dies. You will see a "false shoulder" at the point of the bushing stop point. This is fine and some believe as I do it to be beneficial along with keeping neck tension down around .002 or less in a bolt gun. Bill

 

[rstreich]

Elkbane, I can't understand you description, so let me just restate what Bill said: When you size with bushing in a Redding die, you can only size most of the neck. It will not size the entire neck. This leaves what Bill referred to as a false shoulder--just the unsized portion of the case neck that extends from wherever your bushing stopped sizing down to the neck shoulder junction.

If you're describing a "belling" of the case mouth, then you might be using the expander ball and you should probably remove it,keep in mind what spclark said, however) or you don't have your necks lubed properly. I think I also had some case mouth belling with a 243 Win that I used to have that had a rather "roomy" factory neck. I couldn't get rid of it completely, so I just never worried about it as the gun shot just fine with it.

 

[Elkbane]

Thanks for the replys. I may have the dies set too deep which casuses sizing to much of the neck. I am using Imperial wax for lube on the necks. My chamber is pretty generous so I'm going to try and size in 2 steps to see how that works. I fiddled with the dies last night on some different brass,thinner brass) and it didn't flare the case neck, but it wasn't very concentric either.

On my 7mm-08,Win) cases fired necks measure .315" and loaded is .3105. I was trying to use a .309 bushing to get the right neck tension. I'll try in two steps going to .312 before using the .309 and see how that works. Hard to get it right moving the brass around that much.

I'll also measure how much of the neck I'm sizing to see if I'm trying to get too much of the neck.
Elkbane

 

[tootalloutdoors]

Sure beats the heck out of me Elkbane. My experience has all been with the F/L bushing dies. I don't see how it would be possible. Might try annealing??? Be sure to post the fix. It will probably happen to me sometime, and I'll want to know..

Kelly

 

[spclark]

Here are some things I do now:

Put an o-ring under your die lock-down ring. The idea here is that the o-ring allows the die to "float" in the press threads and self-center somewhat. If your die is hard into the threads and very slightly non-concentric to the ram, you may be moving your necks off-center as well.

Don't size your necks all in one stroke of your press ram - take little strokes of progressively deeper depth, in between which you rotate the case slightly.

I've also taken whatever case holder retaining mechanism engineered into my press rams off to allow the case holders to self-center too. If you find yourself pulling the base out too often, a smaller, thinner o-ring works great as a more forgiving retainer.

 

[CatShooter]

Elkbane...

You've gotten some bad info from one of these postings.

There is no reason to only size a 0.06" to 0.10"... you can size almost the full neck. The Redding "S" Bushing dies size the full neck, right up to a tiny bit in front of the shoulder. You will,as Billmo said) see a small ridge where the bushing stopped.

Also... the stem is NOT to hold the bushing stop in place - it is to hold the decapping pin in place.

The micrometer top section holds the bushing stop in place - you can remove the entire spindle/decapping pin, if you don't decap when neck sizing.

And there is no reason to put an "O" ring under the die - shell holders have enough slop that the cases are self centering - you don't want the case AND the die flopping around in the process - nothing will align then - if your cases are not lining up with the dies, an "O" ring won't help - you need a new press.

-

You don't need to lube the necks with anything, you can size them dry, unless you have just annealed them. If you have just annealed the necks, you MUST use a light lube on the necks, or brass will stick to the bushing and score the necks badly.

When sized, the necks will be the same diameter all the way to where the bushing stopped...

...unless the neck has varying hardness.

This is more common than most people think.

The mouth gets most of the sizing... it takes most of the beating of shooting - and in return, the mouth gets harder than the base of the neck.

If you then run the bushing down to close to the shoulder... the base of the neck sizes easily, but the mouth section "springs back" more than the base, and causes the deadly "trumpet mouff syndrome".

However, what is happening to your cases is not a real problem, just go to a bushing that gives you the mouth size that you want.


.

 

[Elkbane]

OK - really, thanks guys for all the help. I'll try several bushings with and without lube tonight and see how it comes out - and yes, the button that I have in the end of my die shaft is to hold the decapping pin - not an expander button.
Elkbane

 

[spclark]

From Redding's tech pages:

"Other factors that can improve concentricity:
Â¥ Lube case necks, even with TiN coated bushings.
Â¥ Partial size case necks. Sizing 1/2 or 3/4 of the neck seems to be the most popular.
Â¥ Try flipping the bushing over. We like to install them with the letters down to start with.
Â¥ Trim cases mouths square so they will enter the bushing straight. Don't forget to chamfer the case mouth, inside and out. This is very important as it eases the entry of the case mouth into the bushing, and the bullet into the case mouth.
Â¥ Anneal case necks. Cases that have been fired many times work harden and this causes excessive spring-back of the case necks."

http://www.redding-reloading.com/techlinepages/concentricity_bushdies.htm

As for the decapping stem's purpose: not only does it act to hold an expander button and a decapping pin,should you choose to use one or both) but also serves to hold in place a neck bushing stop,attachment).

With my dies,full bushing style) the micrometer top section isn't long enough to serve as a proper stop even when the locking ring is removed and the top is screwed down fully; the stop is needed as a spacer between the bushing and the top. The threaded rod serves to hold the spacer in place, the lock ring keeps the top from moving & altering the amount of neck length the bushing is adjusted to resize. Removing the stem makes using the stop,or decapping) impossible.

Many contributors here have more experience than others. Take what info you feel might lead you to a solution for what you want to achieve, while being mindful that what works for one may not work for another.

 

[rstreich]

Elkbane, if your necks are only opening up 4.5 thousandths, that's not bad at all. It may turn out to be no big deal at all or one of the suggestions here will make it go away. Let us know what works.

There is no reason to only size a 0.06" to 0.10"... you can size almost the full neck. The Redding "S" Bushing dies size the full neck, right up to a tiny bit in front of the shoulder.

I seem to see a fair bit of variation with this one from cartridge to cartridge. Some come pretty close to the neck-shoulder junction, some not so close.

I don't think I saw anyone suggest sizing '0.06" to 0.10".'

The micrometer top section holds the bushing stop in place - you can remove the entire spindle/decapping pin, if you don't decap when neck sizing.

The standard S die doesn't have a micrometer top. You need the stem with the lock ring to hold the bushing in place.

The mouth gets most of the sizing... it takes most of the beating of shooting - and in return, the mouth gets harder than the base of the neck.

How does it get most of the sizing? Just curious about this one--not arguing the point. I'd just like to hear your reasoning on this one.

 

[CatShooter]

The mouth gets most of the sizing... it takes most of the beating of shooting - and in return, the mouth gets harder than the base of the neck.

How does it get most of the sizing? Just curious about this one--not arguing the point. I'd just like to hear your reasoning on this one.

Well.. this is generality, so take it in that light.

Most domestic brass is thicker at the mouth to start with, and for whatever reason, most domestic brass is really thick for the first 10 to 20 thou - almost flanged, and it doesn't clean up on sizing. It probably has to do with the way they are "trimmed" to length,and I use that term loosely!!)

I have not found that with Lapua, and I don't use Norma.

Most bullets get seated part way down the neck, so the front of the neck takes the brunt of the brass working.


.

 

[rstreich]

Most domestic brass is thicker at the mouth to start with, and for whatever reason, most domestic brass is really thick for the first 10 to 20 thou - almost flanged, and it doesn't clean up on sizing. It probably has to do with the way they are "trimmed" to length,and I use that term loosely!!)

Hmm, I'll have to pay attention to that. I think the only virgin domestic brass I have around any more is some Win 222 and some LC '07,I think Federal had the contract for that). Maybe I'll have to sit down with a tubing mic and check it out.

Even if it isn't getting sized more, I think thicker brass work hardens more quickly than thinner. Kind of a double-whammy if it is getting worked more.

Maybe they just give it a few good whacks on the end to get it down to size, eh?

 

[Elkbane]

OK, here's what I found out in testing two sets of 7-08 brass with the bushing dies.

Necked down Lapua Brass: .315 fired case neck and .3135 loaded neck. I used a .312 bushing without lube and no apparent trumpeting of the case mouth. Concentricity was OK for trimmed cases. A few that I was trying to "grow" to the rest of the batch length and were untrimmed, were less concentric,worst was.002 at center neck). These have fairly short necks with an OAL of 2.018".

Win brass, slightly turned: .315 fired case and .310-.3095 loaded neck. I tried two ways. Two stages, first with .312 bushing and then with .309 busing worked the best,no lube). Fairly concentric this way and I'm sizing .254" of a .275" neck. No trumpeting. Second way was one stage using just the .309 bushing. Concentricity got worse and occasional trumpeting,1 in 5). Again no lube. These cases have longer necks - OAL 2.025".

I guess I know what I need to do,at least for my setup). Pay attention to the differential between neck OD and desired sized neck and take it in stages if extreme. Only use trimmed cases. Ditch the lube.

FWIW: I'm still getting better concentricity out of my Forster F/L dies set to just kiss the shoulder - but having to lube for F/L sizing is a real PITA. On these, sized necks are .3085" and loaded rounds show runout in the 1-3 thousand range, measured 1/8" from the tip - pretty straight.

Am I missing anything? Thnx for the help.
Elkbane