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Pressure signs and 6mm ARC's 52ksi pressure limit

Last night I watched a YouTube guy work up some loads for the 6mm ARC, and then talked about reading primers and pressure signs.

It occured to me much later that the 6 ARC has an artificially low pressure limit, 52000 psi. Brass and primers won't show distress at these moderate pressures. So, what pressure signs are available at these pressures?
 
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https://www.shootingsoftware.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RSI&Category_Code=PT

This approach is not for everybody, but it is a way for a hobbyist to study pressure without lab level resources.

ETA: Here is another look at the issues of trying to interpret brass for estimating pressure. Knowing all this makes me a hypocrite since I still do it when I should know better. Sometimes I am just too lazy to bond another strain gage, but I also know enough to stay well away from high pressure.

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/dbramwell july 19 04.pdf
 
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Thanks, 0.1. Good reading.
Thanks also, RegionRat. I wasn't aware

Summarizing, then: primer pressure signs are unreliable and, worse, often misleading. And if you set aside the folklore, your college education might have a chance to remind of the obvious: there is no substitute for direct measurement.

I do have to ask, though. The PressureTrace write up dismisses internal ballistics software thusly:

PressureTrace obsoletes interior ballistics software that at best, crudely predicts pressures. You will quickly learn to recognize the classic "look" of loads that work best, how neck tension and seating depth affect the shape of the pressure curve and even how throat condition and barrel fouling alter what happens inside a cartridge as it is fired. There is simply no way to "estimate" these factors with mathematical algorithms in software.​

It is precisely those crude predictions of chamber pressure that interest me. Is there enough meaningful correlation between GRT estimates and measured data to use it as an initial guide for load ups? (And then we're back to reading primers as a safety check...)
 
Last night I watched a YouTube guy work up some loads for the 6mm ARC, and then talked about reading primers and pressure signs.

It occured to me much later that the 6 ARC has an artificially low pressure limit, 52000 psi. Brass and primers won't show distress at these moderate pressures. So, what pressure signs are available at these pressures?
First as fas as any information available IMO the 6MM ARC was designed for rapid (mag dump scenatios) and slow more aimed fire in the AR15/M16/4 platforms, so the pressure limit is set for those firing platforms, expected use and desired rifle life.

The artificial pressures are those above 52,000 PSI, note I did not say unsafe pressures. The M16/4 platform has been operating at 62,300 PSI for several years with reduced rifle life. Bolt rifles have their own limits.

Unfortunately I know of no convenient methods for precision measurement of lower pressures for the handloader. Computer programs are only as accurate as your adherence to design specs of the rifle and ammo in your rifle and ammo as the specs of the processes producing the data the program was based on.

What I'm doing for my AR15 M4E by Aero Precision is strictly following Hornady formulas, ( a rifle made by a partnered manufacturer, projectiles, powder, primers, brass) comparing measured velocities, brass, report, recoil and ejection with Hornady factory fired ammunition.
 
It is precisely those crude predictions of chamber pressure that interest me. Is there enough meaningful correlation between GRT estimates and measured data to use it as an initial guide for load ups? (And then we're back to reading primers as a safety check...)
I'm following with the idea that QuickLoad and GRT are math model estimates, but how did we make the jump back to reading primers? If you are interested in learning to do load development off the charts, get the education and instrumentation first.

You can start with math models like QL and GRT while working in parallel with published safe recipes. You can then compare the predictions to your measured velocities. Nothing about those math models should be taken as a way to get into high pressure or run right up to the edges of the safety margins.

The study of thermodynamics, chemistry, metallurgy, and engineering are not like going to McDonalds and ordering up a fast answer. Some very accomplished ballisticians have no formal education credentials, but that doesn't mean they are not highly educated or unqualified. Their corporate lawyers cover their publications with liability insurance, so in the end they are ready for what comes.

Unfortunately I know of no convenient methods for precision measurement of lower pressures for the handloader.
David, learning to strain gage isn't for everyone, but it also isn't as inconvenient as a hospital visit.

Pressure vessels, bombs, strain gages, boiler codes, high pressure seals, guns, etc., are not topics for half baked answers because they often lead to really bad accidents, the kind where we end up searching for all the missing parts of people to return to their families.
 
I'm following with the idea that QuickLoad and GRT are math model estimates, but how did we make the jump back to reading primers? If you are interested in learning to do load development off the charts, get the education and instrumentation first.

You can start with math models like QL and GRT while working in parallel with published safe recipes. You can then compare the predictions to your measured velocities. Nothing about those math models should be taken as a way to get into high pressure or run right up to the edges of the safety margins.

The study of thermodynamics, chemistry, metallurgy, and engineering are not like going to McDonalds and ordering up a fast answer. Some very accomplished ballisticians have no formal education credentials, but that doesn't mean they are not highly educated or unqualified. Their corporate lawyers cover their publications with liability insurance, so in the end they are ready for what comes.


David, learning to strain gage isn't for everyone, but it also isn't as inconvenient as a hospital visit.

Pressure vessels, bombs, strain gages, boiler codes, high pressure seals, guns, etc., are not topics for half baked answers because they often lead to really bad accidents, the kind where we end up searching for all the missing parts of people to return to their families.
I agree either play it safe and stick with developed formulas or play it safe and learn to correctly use the right gear. The new M855A1 cartridge running at 62,300 PSI goes through barrels in half the rounds then the old M193 or the M855 at 52,000 PSI.
 
I agree either play it safe and stick with developed formulas or play it safe and learn to correctly use the right gear. The new M855A1 cartridge running at 62,300 PSI goes through barrels in half the rounds then the old M193 or the M855 at 52,000 PSI.
Yes, agree, and keep in mind the specs and contract requirements on those bbls too. Many commercial bbls do not meet those requirements and would fare even worse.
 
If you are shooting the 6 ARC in an AR platform, consider sticking with published, pressure tested load data. If you are shooting it in a bolt gun, you can easily exceed the 52K psi limit for the AR bolt using published data for bolt guns or your usual technique for working up a safe load.
 
Yes, agree, and keep in mind the specs and contract requirements on those bbls too. Many commercial bbls do not meet those requirements and would fare even worse.
Keeping to the specs is why I got the Aero Precision, they use Ballistic Advantage barrels and both were on the team right up front. I went with their lower also and dug a bit deeper for a 2 stage match trigger.

I won't go to the bother of a strain guage because for what I'm doing the return on my time and dollar isn't there. My 6MM ARC AR15 was intended for a one gun purpose. Fight and food, throw it in the truck, the accuracy is simply a bonus and it's good, rivals most high end field both rifles. So far damn near my custom varmint and heavy hunting rifles.
 
First as fas as any information available IMO the 6MM ARC was designed for rapid (mag dump scenatios) and slow more aimed fire in the AR15/M16/4 platforms, so the pressure limit is set for those firing platforms, expected use and desired rifle life.

The artificial pressures are those above 52,000 PSI, note I did not say unsafe pressures. The M16/4 platform has been operating at 62,300 PSI for several years with reduced rifle life. Bolt rifles have their own limits.

Unfortunately I know of no convenient methods for precision measurement of lower pressures for the handloader. Computer programs are only as accurate as your adherence to design specs of the rifle and ammo in your rifle and ammo as the specs of the processes producing the data the program was based on.

What I'm doing for my AR15 M4E by Aero Precision is strictly following Hornady formulas, ( a rifle made by a partnered manufacturer, projectiles, powder, primers, brass) comparing measured velocities, brass, report, recoil and ejection with Hornady factory fired ammunition.
The higher average working pressures you mention are with a .223/5.56 case head which is appreciably smaller than the case head of the 6 ARC. The bolt thrust is the product of the area of the case head times pressure. If you shoot the ARC at 62K PSI, the bolt thrust will be well in excess of that of the 5.56 fired at that pressure level. One barrel manufacturer declined to offer 6 ARC chambering because of damage to the bolt lugs in testing.
 
The higher average working pressures you mention are with a .223/5.56 case head which is appreciably smaller than the case head of the 6 ARC. The bolt thrust is the product of the area of the case head times pressure. If you shoot the ARC at 62K PSI, the bolt thrust will be well in excess of that of the 5.56 fired at that pressure level. One barrel manufacturer declined to offer 6 ARC chambering because of damage to the bolt lugs in testing.
I agree however I'll never do anything but 52,000 PSI in my AR. The 6MM ARC seems a decent target round but my testing has me liking it as a close quarter combat round with capabilities out to about 800 yards with a 16" barrel.

Something I've been wanting to get for 48 years, the 30 Carbine was great in close, but out past 200 it was lacking, the M16/4 were also good in close but lacking at distance (400+) especially in wind.
 
I'm following with the idea that QuickLoad and GRT are math model estimates, but how did we make the jump back to reading primers? If you are interested in learning to do load development off the charts, get the education and instrumentation first.
The entire thought?

The PressureTrace would be a great purchase for the club. But I don't have a club; it's just me. More on the PT below.

I'll go ahead and bond a strain gauge on my barrel ahead of having some way to read it. I just love it that they're available and reasonably priced. They are emblematic of a promise I can make myself. In the meantime, I'll load up what GRT and QL says looks reasonable, and confirm what I can as a safety backstop (chrony? primers?).

I'm still on the fence for the PressureTrace. The two wires coming off the strain gauge basically needs for only a wheatstone bridge, a storage oscilloscope, and some amount of R&D. I do have a PicoScope already on hand.

In any case, I haven't decided whether I want to try rolling my own, and the $800 purchase doesn't appeal that strongly. (And that's how I cycled back to reading primer tea leaves.)
 
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I bought my barrel for mid range Pdogs and possibly coyotes. If I want 62kpsi, I will get a Howa mini and rebarrel it, and I would like to do so, but at 52kpsi the barrel runs cool, accurate and with the 87 Vmax, will reach out and smack the Pdogs. If you really want a hotrod, you probably should get an AR10 in .243 or 6CM
 
I would work up using Hodgdon data. The starting load may not expand the necks fully? When near or at maximum, the neck should be fully expanded.

Its important to know the loaded rounds neck diameter before firing. Slow burn rate powders & light for caliber bullets tend to not expand necks fully, till pressure are on the high side.
So, what pressure signs are available at these pressures?
An over load will cause the fired case to stick in the chamber. The extractor will damage the case rim, trying to pull it out. Auto Loaders.
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