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Pragmatic Jump Increments (.22-250)

222Jim

Silver $$ Contributor
I'm looking for some guidance on Jump Increments.

I'm working up a load for my .22-250. I'm using 40 gr Berger Varmint bullets, IMR-3031, Lapua fire-formed cases (0.002 shoulder set-back), and Federal GM210M Primers. My best load (0.4 MOA CEP90 based on 20 shots at 100 m) is 37.1 gr of IMR-3031 with a 0.125" Jump ("125 Thou").

Note that the longest I can seat these bullets, leaving ~1/2 caliber in the neck, is with a jump of 65 Thou. The shortest is 125 Thou at which point the bullet's ogive is 2 - 4 Thou from the case mouth.

My question is jump increments. I've consistently read 5 Thou increments, but I can't find a technically valid reason for why 5 (or 10 or whatever). My dilemma is further compounded by the fact that when I decrease the jump by 60 Thou, i.e. go from 125 Thou to 65 Thou of Jump, Quickload predicts that the:
(1) Velocity will only decrease by ~30 FPS, and the
(2) Barrel Time (10% of Pmax to muzzle) increases by 0.010 milli-seconds.

So a 5 Thou change will make next to negligible change in velocity or barrel time.

Anybody have any insights to offer? Theoretical or otherwise?
 
According to Erik Cortina the distance the ogive is set up from the lands don't really matter. Start at a base to ogive measurement in which you feel comfortable with and move the bullet .003 increments deeper into the case to find the best accuracy seating depth. If there are two or three tight groups together in a node then go with the longest measurement.
 
From experience with several calibers. 5 to six thousand is a good jump distance. I look for two that shoot well next to each other and then explore that area with 3 thou. Increments. 10 thousandth is a big Increments and you can miss a great location. Many people find a decent group every 15 to 30 thousandths.

Enjoy!
 
I'm looking for some guidance on Jump Increments.

I'm working up a load for my .22-250. I'm using 40 gr Berger Varmint bullets, IMR-3031, Lapua fire-formed cases (0.002 shoulder set-back), and Federal GM210M Primers. My best load (0.4 MOA CEP90 based on 20 shots at 100 m) is 37.1 gr of IMR-3031 with a 0.125" Jump ("125 Thou").

Note that the longest I can seat these bullets, leaving ~1/2 caliber in the neck, is with a jump of 65 Thou. The shortest is 125 Thou at which point the bullet's ogive is 2 - 4 Thou from the case mouth.

My question is jump increments. I've consistently read 5 Thou increments, but I can't find a technically valid reason for why 5 (or 10 or whatever). My dilemma is further compounded by the fact that when I decrease the jump by 60 Thou, i.e. go from 125 Thou to 65 Thou of Jump, Quickload predicts that the:
(1) Velocity will only decrease by ~30 FPS, and the
(2) Barrel Time (10% of Pmax to muzzle) increases by 0.010 milli-seconds.

So a 5 Thou change will make next to negligible change in velocity or barrel time.

Anybody have any insights to offer? Theoretical or otherwise?
Why not 52 or 55 gr bullets.
 
Why not 52 or 55 gr bullets.
I will be moving onto 52 & 53 gr bullets soon (actually looking at 50, 52, 53 & 55). I'm currently working on 40 gr in my .22-250 and the 52 & 52 bullets in my .222 Remington, and will switch once I've got loads in those rifles settled on. The 40's are great for the "gophers" we have in Alberta, which are actually ground squirrels, and an adult ground squirrel is about the size of a young prairie dog.

But, my original question applies to any bullets. And whatever guidance I get for the 40's will be applied to them and larger bullets.
 
There is no such thing as a “perfect” generic answer that applies to any and all bullets or barrels. Context matters.

In some games, folks test jump in huge increments and do just fine. In others, they have to test in very small ones to find an optimum.

Some bullet/rifle combinations show a sensitivity to seating depth, while others do not because many of them have a high noise level and many are not tuneable. You could shoot just about any seating depth in those contexts.

In other contexts, you won’t be competitive unless you find that optimized seating depth and then test to determine how wide that window node is.

If a depth window is narrow or wide is up to fate, but in a narrow window you would find your increment advice wasn’t any good if you skipped right past the node. At the same time, it is a waste of components and time to use a fine seating depth search in a rig that is never going to show anything through the noise.

I know everyone would like to hear they will get a clear answer and their rig will shoot inside 1/4 MOA if they follow some advice off the internet…. But in reality context matters and generic advice doesn’t exist.

ETA: anyone who has the homework done to the point where they are quoting CEP90, is probably going to run down the difference between the math models and their own results. When you have a chance, go ahead and plot that seating depth sweep against velocity and see if it tracks those predictions. I’m betting that after a few more barrels, you will be helping give advice instead needing it.
 
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It really comes down to experimenting with your rifle as stated above. I took (3) 22-250s to the range yesterday. An 8 twist Tikka T3 light that so far shoots everything that I load into small groups and also to the same point of impact. An older Remington Varmint Special (14 twist) that was until recently unfired, it’s liking the 52 grain Bergers so far. Both of those rifles seem to really like Varget. The third is a Savage with an 8 twist from Urban rifleman and this one is shooting the 75 - 80 grain Bergers with H4350.
All of that quick load stuff just doesn’t mean anything to me, only what shoots in each individual rifle. Personally, I mostly like the 50 - 55 grain bullets for varmint hunting although the Tikka is begging me to shoot something bigger with a heavier bullet…
Good shooting,
Gary
 
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First, be cautious with QuickLoad; it treats some things as having a linear response when in actuality they don't. For example, pressure and velocity can increase at greater than a linear rate, especially when close to MAX pressure. I'd be very careful about changing the seating depth of a bullet by over .050" without also changing the charge weight (i.e. a reduction in charge weight as then bullet is seated deeper into the case, thereby reducing effective case volume). QuickLoad might be correct and you might get away with it, but why risk it?

Second, I'm not sure anyone knows exactly what we are doing when we tune groups with seating depth. I've heard a number of different explanations, none of which seem to satisfy all the observed results when optimizing seating depth. For that reason, it seems unlikely that obvious changes in velocity or barrel time will somehow necessarily rigorously correlate with optimized seating depth. I use QuickLoad, but I have never observed it to provide any useful information regarding optimized seating depth in terms of velocty or barrel occupancy time. I let groups on paper tell me that.

The good news is that empirical testing of seating depth will provide the answer. It may be a bit painful if one has to test such large increments (i.e. 0.125" off the lands), but it is still a defined and achievable goal. Berger has a method for optimizing seating depth when moving the bullet very large distances in the case neck. It was originally aimed at VLD bullets, but will work equally well with any type of bullet:


The premise is that one is initially trying to find a seating depth region where their bullet of choice shoots better than at other seating depth regions. In order to cover more "territory", coarse seating depth increments are used. It is expected that after initially finding a seating depth region that showed promise, one would go back and cover that narrower seating depth region using a much finer increment to better define the optimal window.

LIkewise, they have generated an analogous approach optimized for Hybrid ogive bullets, which might also be of interest:

 
There is no such thing as a “perfect” generic answer that applies to any and all bullets or barrels. Context matters.

In some games, folks test jump in huge increments and do just fine. In others, they have to test in very small ones to find an optimum.

Some bullet/rifle combinations show a sensitivity to seating depth, while others do not because many of them have a high noise level and many are not tuneable. You could shoot just about any seating depth in those contexts.

In other contexts, you won’t be competitive unless you find that optimized seating depth and then test to determine how wide that window node is.

If a depth window is narrow or wide is up to fate, but in a narrow window you would find your increment advice wasn’t any good if you skipped right past the node. At the same time, it is a waste of components and time to use a fine seating depth search in a rig that is never going to show anything through the noise.

I know everyone would like to hear they will get a clear answer and their rig will shoot inside 1/4 MOA if they follow some advice off the internet…. But in reality context matters and generic advice doesn’t exist.

ETA: anyone who has the homework done to the point where they are quoting CEP90, is probably going to run down the difference between the math models and their own results. When you have a chance, go ahead and plot that seating depth sweep against velocity and see if it tracks those predictions. I’m betting that after a few more barrels, you will be helping give advice instead needing it.
I'm hoping to not get to the point where I have to change barrels again.......my original .22-250 had 3,500 - 4,000 shots through it over many a year of target, gopher and coyote shooting. Then the groups started opening up rather dramatically. Given I'm starting over with a new barrel, and have many more years of reloading experience, I definitely don't want to shoot this barrel out trying loads. Hence, my original request.

FYI, I've had friends suggest seating depth is a way to "fine tune case volume", but when I point out case-to-case volume variations dwarf what a 0.005" change in CBTO would make, thus making those jump increments meaningless, I get a blank stare or an "oh yeah". Same thing applies to fine tuning time-in-barrel. Best explanation I've got so far that might (emphasis on "might") make sense is the idea (concept? theory? wild ass guess?) is the barrel is going to be straighter than the neck/bullet, i.e. run-out, and a small jump minimizes the run-out that the bullet carries into the barrel. Thus why most bullets "like" smaller jumps and even jams.

Thoughts?
 
First, be cautious with QuickLoad; it treats some things as having a linear response when in actuality they don't. For example, pressure and velocity can increase at greater than a linear rate, especially when close to MAX pressure. I'd be very careful about changing the seating depth of a bullet by over .050" without also changing the charge weight (i.e. a reduction in charge weight as then bullet is seated deeper into the case, thereby reducing effective case volume). QuickLoad might be correct and you might get away with it, but why risk it?

Second, I'm not sure anyone knows exactly what we are doing when we tune groups with seating depth. I've heard a number of different explanations, none of which seem to satisfy all the observed results when optimizing seating depth. For that reason, it seems unlikely that obvious changes in velocity or barrel time will somehow necessarily rigorously correlate with optimized seating depth. I use QuickLoad, but I have never observed it to provide any useful information regarding optimized seating depth in terms of velocty or barrel occupancy time. I let groups on paper tell me that.

The good news is that empirical testing of seating depth will provide the answer. It may be a bit painful if one has to test such large increments (i.e. 0.125" off the lands), but it is still a defined and achievable goal. Berger has a method for optimizing seating depth when moving the bullet very large distances in the case neck. It was originally aimed at VLD bullets, but will work equally well with any type of bullet:


The premise is that one is initially trying to find a seating depth region where their bullet of choice shoots better than at other seating depth regions. In order to cover more "territory", coarse seating depth increments are used. It is expected that after initially finding a seating depth region that showed promise, one would go back and cover that narrower seating depth region using a much finer increment to better define the optimal window.

LIkewise, they have generated an analogous approach optimized for Hybrid ogive bullets, which might also be of interest:

I'll add to your comment that "I'm not sure anyone knows exactly what we are doing when we tune groups with seating depth. I've heard a number of different explanations, none of which seem to satisfy all the observed results when optimizing seating depth." I've pointed out to friends that a seating depth change of 0.005" or anything in that range is meaningless when you consider case-to-case variations in internal volume.

Best explanation I've got so far that might (emphasis on "might") make sense is the idea (concept? theory? wild ass guess?) is the barrel is going to be straighter than the neck/bullet, i.e. run-out, and a small jump minimizes the run-out that the bullet carries into the barrel. Thus why most bullets "like" smaller jumps and even jams.
 
I'm hoping to not get to the point where I have to change barrels again.......my original .22-250 had 3,500 - 4,000 shots through it over many a year of target, gopher and coyote shooting. Then the groups started opening up rather dramatically. Given I'm starting over with a new barrel, and have many more years of reloading experience, I definitely don't want to shoot this barrel out trying loads. Hence, my original request.

FYI, I've had friends suggest seating depth is a way to "fine tune case volume", but when I point out case-to-case volume variations dwarf what a 0.005" change in CBTO would make, thus making those jump increments meaningless, I get a blank stare or an "oh yeah". Same thing applies to fine tuning time-in-barrel. Best explanation I've got so far that might (emphasis on "might") make sense is the idea (concept? theory? wild ass guess?) is the barrel is going to be straighter than the neck/bullet, i.e. run-out, and a small jump minimizes the run-out that the bullet carries into the barrel. Thus why most bullets "like" smaller jumps and even jams.

Thoughts?
I'm happy you are seeing through the "group think" that is prevalent on the internet.

Ask yourself if those friends are really demonstrating what they say, or if they are just parroting what they think they hear on the internet.

In many well built rigs with quality barrels/bullets and well dimensioned necks and chambers, it is worth your time to search the seating depth at or near jam if it doesn't conflict with how you have to run the gun.

At the end, if it works well, then who cares what the theory is or if the math models match. If it works with reliability, then that is all that matters. YMMV
 
Folks,

Thanks for feedback you've offered. It's much appreciated.

I've yet to get or find a robust and statistically/technically valid explanation as to why seating depth is important (other than "nodes", which I'm still not convinced is the reason given how variations in charge weight and case-to-case internal volume changes dwarf a 0.005" jump change - but I'm open to being convinced!).

But, I did find what I consider to be a good study (by the Department of Mathematics, Metropolitan State College of Denver) on how significant changes in jump can be, and, relative to powder charge changes, jump is surprisingly insignificant. It's still important, but not worth burning a barrel out to optimize!

I am a retired engineer and somewhat versed in statistics and test design, and I am of the opinion this is a good study. The study consisted of firing 400 shots over 6 seating depths in 0.005" increments and 10 charges in 0.10 gr increments (using a bolt action Savage 10FLP in .223). Their three major conclusions were:
(i) By itself, the seating depth of the bullet does not seem to affect that shooting precision,
(ii) The powder charge does seem to affect the precision shooting significantly, and
(iii) There exists a significant interaction between seating depth and the powder charge.

For those versed in statistics, the F Value (the larger the value, the more likely the observed results are real*) for powder charge is 2.01, and for seating depth it's 0.76. More importantly, the Pr>F (the probability that the observation is just a random occurrence*) for powder charge is only 3.78%, and for seating depth it's 57.74% (the "*" is just a note that I'm using layman's definitions and not the strict statisticians' definitions involving "null hypothesis", etc.).

The study doesn't answer the question "why", but it does address the "how significant is jump". I've attached the study.
 

Attachments

Not to sound too critical of their paper, but when I was teaching or peer reviewing papers, they would have been sent packing. If this was a professional environment, their next review would not go well either.

TLDR: The effort was doomed from the start since they didn't have enough shooting sessions or replicates planned to cover the issues such that their use of stats is so weak you didn't need to run fancy math. Then, they jump off the rails with their conclusion that their results or methods would apply to anything.

It is one thing to let a few grammatical errors slip past, but it is another to let the paper go while mixing up their units on the most important results of the work.

If they can't be trusted to keep mm and inches straight on the most important graph in the paper, how do you trust them for the rest of the design of experiment or statistical validity work?

The idea of senior design projects is to raise a student to become a scientist/engineer, but then shouldn't the design of the experiment and the testing methods be part of the grade? How many replicates it takes to support the hypothesis becomes the responsibility of the student and the advisors. They cannot print money, but if the paper is missing the main points it is within their scope.

Show me that a two factor test you claim is unique and works, or if the results of the work didn't turn out as predicted show us why and tell us what the next steps should be in an ideal world where you had improved methods or budgets.

In other words, if the idea is to make the grade of Captain, and there isn't enough fuel in the tanks to make it across to the next port, should we even launch the ship? Or, should we stop and teach them you don't run weak test plans and then try to draw conclusions with stats when the idea is they are supposed to know how to design and run testing and when the math is meaningful or just another example of the abuse of statistics.

Notice the Seating Depth dimension shown as (mm) on the contour plot? Those should be inches not mm and it is only the single most important part of the paper. Laymen can spot that mistake, but only scientists can state the effort to use design of experiment and the use of statistics here was very weak for a senior.

1692130606062.png

They admit some fairly serious issues with their shooting sessions. They mentioned cleaning every 20 rounds but say they culled a significant number of shots due to human errors as well as suspect that bullets tumbled due to copper fouling. There was no real effort to show the windage contribution by analyzing the dimensions? How big is the effect of wind on the shots over the two day session while not using flags?

Can the target data be analyzed to determine the number of shots required to ignore the wind? What would the above plots look like if we added the statistical uncertainty to them?

How about just one side by side of the best and worst part of those plots as evidence that their method yielded anything useful?

Doesn't it make sense to demonstrate that all this effort paid off by showing us a 10 shot group of the 25.9 gr- 0.028 seating depth versus 25.9 gr - 0.010 seating depth?

Not once are there any words at all on the concept of "would these results reflect any bullet/chamber/barrel, or just this one, and why?" and that is a serious experimental planning error if the claim is to demonstrate a useful test method.

If this is a novel paper, should we be able to apply it to the next test? Would we do things the same way or would there be changes? Is there anything in the paper that the forum would use to find the best combination of charge and depth, or is the conclusion in the paper valid?

How does one take this example and use it next? Should this paper propose the improvements to get the test design to be reliable? Or do we just say that charge and depth can be covered by these same procedures the next time?

Here I don't blame the student for not having the budget, but it is where I would fail them for not pointing out how to fix this method for the next time.

To design a factorial experiment in completely new territory, I don't blame folks for taking risks and getting burned. They should share their failures and ideas for what they do next if given the chance. That said, there isn't anything new here, and in fact the noise in the results are expected based on the number of what are called the covariates table. Do we use 55 gr VMax in a Savage factory barrel with this many shots to prove or disprove a test method? Should we all copy this method or plan for something else?

The noise caused by all the factors in their table is their responsibility during the planning, and that should also imply planning for enough tests to add validity to the test design. Here I would have stopped them in their tracks.

Go back to your desk and tell me the budget for pulling the effect of charge-seating depth while using these materials. How many shots and replicated tests does it take to draw conclusions while ignoring the winds, the brass, the cleaning, etc. Was the step size good, the number of samples, or should it be changed, why?

The copper fouling gets mentioned, yet they also failed to tie it into the bigger picture with respect to the effect on the whole project and what it would take to actually draw any conclusions. How does one explain keyhole evidence? Can we draw any conclusions on the other shots when we see keyhole shots? Why not show the keyhole shots with respect to the cleaning intervals and where they occur? Do they affect the conclusions? Should the experimental method be altered?

Their actual statistics results are noisy and weak, I wonder if anyone qualified checked their work? In the end, there were 380 shots to find a combination of 25.9 grains and seating depth of roughly 0.0275" using what they called a "police grade" rifle, otherwise shown as a Savage 10FLP in 223, using Hornady 55 grain VMax bullets.

In order for their use of the lot as a blocking factor, and with all those covariates, they would have had to run the total test several more times to have any validity for their method, then add in enough testing on a whole different rifle/bullet combination in order to draw any conclusions on the applicability of these results or method to anything else.

In other words, as scientists they should have known better up front. After all, we have to assume this paper was part of some class or gradation requirement where we assume the goal is to create engineers and scientists who do more than just drop statistical buzz words and make plots that don't show the statistical uncertainty of the results.

For folks who are expected to know design of experiment, this error is similar to folks with no background calculating Standard Deviations on 3 shots and claiming to have done statistics to validate their conclusions. If you read the paper, don't expect to learn anything about shooting, reloading, proper use of statistics, or a method to find the best seating depth.

The student shows potential, but there is also a danger in the tone of the paper. Rather than boast that the effort is the only known test or statistically designed test method, they missed the opportunity to propose the critical corrections to the work and set up the future work to actually be able to draw any reliable conclusions.

Does the next guy use this method as is? Is a copy of this test method reliable for finding the best charge-seating depth? Would those contour plots be expected to repeat for even this rifle and load?

That a skinny budget cannot cure cancer is forgivable, but if the point is to raise engineering managers and scientists who are capable of honesty in their proposals and the capability to estimate how much sample size it takes to draw conclusions that will repeat for some other lab, then here we have failed.

I apologize for the critique of the paper, but in reality it is not a good example for the effort spent. I realize they probably spent their own money and had no support for a more extensive study, but using this topic as the stage for an experimental report was likely his choice. The advisors should have rejected the proposal when the number of tests and shots could not possibly have covered the requirements for all the statistics and experimental designs or to be used to draw the conclusions he made. YMMV
 
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I appreciate your lengthy and detailed reply.

Maybe I'm not as critical as you have been because this was the best attempt I've seen to address this topic. I've frankly seen so many YouTube videos and read so many blogs and articles in well established magazines claiming this or that on the basis of 3 to 5 shot groups. So yes, there are issues with their attempt to quantify things, but relative to what else I've seen out there, this is a big improvement.

Could they improve it? Yes........from the writing to forgetting to say dispersion was measured in mm. But it's so much better than what else I've seen. I'll emphasis the "I've seen"; if you have something better (or even comparable), I'd be interested in studying it as I continue my research into this topic.

Again, I appreciate your detailed reply.

Sincerely

Jim
 
Jim,

I'm glad you took it that way and didn't take offense at my critique.

The topic of seating depth technique has become muddy in that the first question was one of what is the best advice for a seating depth testing interval, but the discussion in general terms goes off the rails when folks span the whole universe from rimfire to artillery, sporting rigs to bench rest, etc..

I'm going to try to describe the concept that when it comes to even being able to detect an improvement due to seating depth it gets difficult when the gun won't shoot small, and please be patient... also when the gun shoots everything small. (It is a good problem to have.)

In between those performance levels, it is less risky to look for a seating depth benefit without burning a DoD sized budget. The number of non-match rifles that can respond well to seating depth tuning using pre-loaded ammo are rare and it takes state of the art discipline in the loading and shooting to show it.

We can calculate an average and standard deviation on a small sample of group performance for the type of shooting done in the paper, and go out the very next time and find the numbers are doubled or half, all just because we took more samples on a rig/ammo/shooter of low quality.

That doesn't condemn the math on the calculation of an average or standard deviation, but too many folks don't realize that just because I calculate those stats doesn't mean they are the correct way to describe the risk that I cannot predict the next performance. Running a calculator or spreadsheet that does stats doesn't guarantee the operator understands decision risk. Clearly that author didn't and the worst part is he claims to be a statistician for a communications company.

As a scientist, you are obligated to try and get the SD to converge and be honest when the noise is as large as the signal. Most times you don't control the budget, but you should also let other folks know they shouldn't follow you into a mine field.

After all, do you really see anything in that paper you can say isn't commonly done better by someone who knows nothing about stats? A sweep of charge weights and seating depths using over 380 shots is not a good way to advance the topic of seating depth testing, in fact it is probably worse than what a layman could do without the math.

A layman who claimed he came up with a novel method would have demonstrated his method by shooting a significant good group and bad one from those contour plots before he claimed his method was novel.

I'm not saying seating depth isn't part of tuning, but I am saying there are many more examples of shooting where the seating depth difference is lost in the noise and only exists as a figment of the shooter's imagination.

In the best examples of pre-loaded ammo (as in the opposite of bench rest where there is an opportunity to tune for the day), seating depth nodes are not very wide and it takes state of the art discipline from start to finish on the gun, the ammo, and the shooting to demonstrate it... and then demonstrate it again. If you can't demonstrate it again, as in no excuses at the next outing, was it real in the first place?

Counting the concept that match shooters tend to run the barrel and chamber in known good combinations, which is another way to say that what they do when starting a fresh barrel is really built upon the countless thousands of shots their colleagues ran as well, their seating depth tune is centered on a good starting point of a good speed/charge. They get to a quick conclusion on seating depth because they already started with a known good combination and their signal-to-noise ratio isn't horrible.

If you go down the path of seating depth tuning, I will recommend you learn to load/test in real time while at the range. Using an arbor press with a Wilson type seating die and pre-prepped brass, you can sort out the seating depth to see if you left anything on the table performance wise, but you will likely not need to use your calculator at all if you are being honest in your assessment, and you won't use 380+ rounds either. YMMV
 

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