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powder sine wave?

CTShooter,

I was drawn to the 6mmBr as were you and a few others here. It has proven to be my most accurate rifle, and of course the most fun to shoot. To date my best shooting has been 1 5/8 at 300 yds. Four of them were 7/8" My goal of 1" at 400 may be over the next hill.

FWIW, I think your observation is very interesting. I never heard of it before.

I'm sure you've heard of barrel whipping and vibration. As I understand it, you tune your load to the physical characteristics of your particular rifle so that the timing of bullet exit coincides with a minimum speed of rifle barrel whip. So that small variations in the exact time of bullet exit do not effect its flight path much because the barrel end is whipping slowly, and therefore has not moved much from the ideal point of exit). a variant of that line of thinking suggests that in addition to the possible up/down left/right whip there is also a radial expansion/contraction that in effect changes bore diameter as it travels up and down the barrel. Again, as I understand it, the ideal bullet exit time coincides with the bore being at maximum constriction. I would guess that this radial expansion, which travels up and down the bore is not perfectly ring shaped, but rather stretches into an ellipse in one direction,lets say vertically for arguments sake) and then shrinks back and stretches in the opposite direction,which would be horizontally in this case). I would then climb way way out on yonder limb and suggest that if this phenomena were occurring at the chamber end of the barrel while the powder burn is still active,it would leave an uneven burn/soot mark on the case. Said mark would extend further down the neck in 2 diametrically opposed places while the spaces in between would show very little mark. Now - if the expanding portion of this distorted radial vibration is at the chamber end, what's going on at the muzzle. Your experience with your small group, and the response/advice of proficient shooters you referenced suggest its an indicator that the constricting portion of the vibration is at or near the muzzle. Its not clear to me why they should be at opposite ends at the same time, I'll ask some people smarter than me to speculate on that. But, if the load,pressure, barrel time, etc) is all in tune with the rifle, maybe that results in the maximum distorted expansion being at the chamber end,allowing uneven blow by) while the max distorted compression being at the muzzle while the bullet is exiting,resulting in highly repeatable bullet path). I think your observation, along with those of some others could lead to some new understanding. I will be looking for this effect as I pursue my goal. Thanks for the post, Hanic
 
The 'burn wave' on the outside of necks is very common in tighter necked chambers. Generally speaking, as the neck clearance increases the 'pattern' tends to go away,the peaks 'flatten out'). The increased clearance simply allows more powder residue to form on the case neck before the neck is completely sealed to the chamber. With very little neck clearance, the pattern is still there but is less noticeable. You'll also see a different pattern on case necks that are work hardened versus the same case necks that have been recently annealed.

The 'burn wave' on the case necks of my BR stuff is very repeatable but it's also different for each powder. Since different powders have unique coatings and burn rates, that's no surprise. As an example, my 30BR with H4198 shows one general 'burn wave' pattern while N130's 'burn wave' pattern is different. The pattern also changes when the humidity/temp/dew point changes dramatically.

And while I don't tune for a particular 'burn wave', it does have the same general shape once the gun is really in tune and hammering.

This could be better than 'tuners' and 'muzzle devices'.:rolleyes: -Al :D
 
I've read all the posts regarding this,sine wave)& it sounds like we finally reached Nirvana, you know, Zen. Maybe we should rename this site Zen Shooting.,just joking). I think AlNyhus described this best by calling this a,burn wave). I've noticed this on case necks but never paid much attention to it. I do believe this phenomenon, physical characteristic, or whatever you want to call it. Sounds like a bunch of happy molecules to have caused this, if, its shootin in one hole...
I think this is a terrific web site. You guys are a wealth of knowledge & info.:)
Greg
 
Hanic & others, 1st, thanks for responding. Your explanation is a very reasoned observation & theory...yes, I have heard of barrel whip, vibrations, etc. I am certainly not an engineer, but my goal is accuracy. As we are able to modify our ammunition to its best suitability, whatever that means to each of us, the aha moment is a pretty view through the scope...even though I am just testing prior to loading to a varmint plinking trip.

Your rig sounds very accurate. Must admit, I wasn't thinking "why" so much on the burn mark, just "should I stop testing the many permutations of loads etc." Guess the obvious answer would be-if it's shooting that bullet well, you can quit! So I did and loaded beaucoup this weekend for my varmint plinking trip. My 6br has a Krieger #7,I think) barrel- 1/14 twist, and a .271" neck. My loaded ammo measures .269" at the neck. I don't turn them, don't even know how, frankly. Greg Tannel built the rifle last year- I asked him what would be a tight / no-turn neck would be & .271 was the "answer." So, for me, 32.0 g of Varget, .010" jump & 65g V-Max bullet and a .271 neck shoots in the "ones", as they apparently say. I don't know velocity- a chronograph is on the buy list.
 
As long as I'm yakking, here's a picture of this thang. Does it look 101 degrees in the photo. Yup, it was.
 

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Bill,

Nice rig. Impressive accuracy you're getting with a stock that doesn't have a flat 3" fore-end. You must be a pretty good trigger puller.

Thanks for listing your load. I get great accuracy with Bergers seated about .015" into the lands, but was disappointed with my V-maxes. Next time I'll try jumping them .010" as you did.

Re Chronographs--we hope to do a comparison test before summer -- as soon as the new PACT with IR is available. PACT has redesigned the IR emitters for better beam patterns.
 
Gday Bill. Nice picture of the rifle there. It looks to be a Predator action. Same on my 6BR. Great rifle and calibre, best thing I ever did.

Dave
 
Just my though, if you think that sine wave is just a mathematical model and isn't "real" then maybe you need to get yourself an oscilloscope and measure some AC Voltages. Last time I checked I was getting pure sine waves from my wall outlet. Hell I have even built some circuits to give me square and triangle waves.
As for this appying to your powder residue on your case, I would say if it shoots bug holes and you have this then its great, If you can't hit a barn then it probably doesn't mean anything.

Just a few words from an Electrical en-ga-neer.
 
Now what kind of bell is that? Do you think it's a real bell because if you can't physically hold it then is it a real bell?
Church bell, door bell, bell bottom pants........
 
Ok, you "guys" are a funny lot, must admit. Can't argue with PAshooter20Br's logic.
As I know not what I know not,as yet), I will again say I have learned,maybe I should say "read", as learning is firsthand, perhaps?) a great deal from this site & the contributors. Yes, my 6BR has a Stiller Predator action. Greg Tannel,Gre-Tan ) built it, on time & on budget, with good humor & good advice.
 
I believe that the wavy carbon line that I commonly see on the necks of my 6PPC, that is set up with slightly under .002" total neck clearance, represent the edges of where the powder residue was stopped as the neck formed a seal as the pressure rose, as the powder burned. Why it is shaped as it is is probably a combination of neck clearance, the characteristics of the brass, those of the powder, and possibly the seating depth of the bullet. I have been told that the pattern correlates with an accurate load, although I doubt that it does so closely as to be useful for making the finest of determinations. For that, we must use the target.
 
Boyd, thanks for the post. Makes sense that is the seal of brass as pressure rose. Yeah, if the target didn't look good, no need to correlate...
I have been shooting a factory Sako 75 single shot 6ppc with VV N133, 58g vmaxes, Norma & Sako USA brass (factory- no turning), and it shoots very small groups. I love this gun! I took it PD shooting last year & good to 200 yds easy. The brass all has that wavy powder burn-of all my rifles/calibers, only the 6BR & 6 PPC have that powder look; not to beat a dead horse... :)
Happy shooting in 2010.
 
I am shooting AA2230 with the 65's at 3700 into tiny groups with Lapua brass and 7 1/2's and the 55's at 3900 fps. The 55's shoot 7-8" flatter than the 70's at 300 yards and very tiny groups.

The sine wave on the case necks is non existant....WHAT COULD IT MEAN...WHAT COULD IT MEAN????
 
This is nonsense. Just because someone writes it or says it doesn't mean you should believe it.
 
Interesting thread, Question , does this DUCKBILL BURN form on the case in the same position on each fired case or is it more random in formation (clocking)?
 

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