Powder Measure Accuracy

[jrbauerjr]

The majority of my reloading has been pistol with Unique and Bullseye. I recently got back into shooting and reloading after a hiatus of about 50 years. I upgraded my old Lyman balance scale to a RCBS 1500 and bought a new Lyman 55 to do the honors. My first project is to develop a load that will give some accuracy to my 223 110 Savage and will also function in my homebuilt 223 Wylde AR-15. I’ve been shooting Fiocchi 223 in the 110 and some Lake City 68 vintage 5.56 in the Ar. As such I decided to aim for a velocity of around 3000 fps for starters. I decided to use IMR4895 for a starter and use 25.5 grains and a Hornady 55 gr for the first load.



I set the Lyman up for 25.5 and began loading up my first batch. I quickly noticed that the casings were filling to different levels in the neck. I then decided to check the powder weights individually, I put the primed casing on the scale, zeroed it, charged it and then reweighed the case to determine the powder charge. First I noted a difference of up to a couple of grains in the case weights even though all of them were once fired RP 223 cases. So much for single mfg’s cases.

Charge	Observations
25​	2​
25.1​	2​
25.2​	3​
25.3​	9​
25.4​	5​
25.5​	9​
25.6​	11​
25.7​	7​
25.8​
25.9​	1​

Average for 49 loads was 25.45. (yes, I fouled one up and wrinkled the case mouth)



Now the question, I have read that this level of spread is nothing to worry about as the difference in velocity is not noticeable. Is this true, it seems to me that almost a full grains difference could take a load past the max safe limit of the load. Is there a better measure to be used with 4895 or should I be looking at a different powder to work up these loads. Or should I just ignore the whole thing and keep on shooting..



Thanks…..

 

[ParallaxFree]

The majority of my reloading has been pistol with Unique and Bullseye. I recently got back into shooting and reloading after a hiatus of about 50 years. I upgraded my old Lyman balance scale to a RCBS 1500 and bought a new Lyman 55 to do the honors. My first project is to develop a load that will give some accuracy to my 223 110 Savage and will also function in my homebuilt 223 Wylde AR-15. I’ve been shooting Fiocchi 223 in the 110 and some Lake City 68 vintage 5.56 in the Ar. As such I decided to aim for a velocity of around 3000 fps for starters. I decided to use IMR4895 for a starter and use 25.5 grains and a Hornady 55 gr for the first load.

Charge	Observations
25​	2​
25.1​	2​
25.2​	3​
25.3​	9​
25.4​	5​
25.5​	9​
25.6​	11​
25.7​	7​
25.8​
25.9​	1​

Average for 49 loads was 25.45. (yes, I fouled one up and wrinkled the case mouth)



Now the question, I have read that this level of spread is nothing to worry about as the difference in velocity is not noticeable. Is this true, it seems to me that almost a full grains difference could take a load past the max safe limit of the load. Is there a better measure to be used with 4895 or should I be looking at a different powder to work up these loads. Or should I just ignore the whole thing and keep on shooting..



Thanks…..

Welcome back to rifle reloading, I predict you're going to have a lot of fun and good results. However, what you just discovered about 4895, is something I dealt with back in the middle 80's. I've concluded, after developing many loads for 223 rifles is that even though 4895 performs excellent, I would rather not mess around with it's unfriendly powder measure characteristics in a relatively small case. With 4895, for accuracy loading in a 223, I always found myself throwing a slightly lower charge and trickling to the desired charge from there.

My personal conclusion was long ago, why fuss around with that nonsense when there are a number of ball powders like BLC2, H335, W748 and others that with the equipment you have right now, using good technique, will throw charges so consistent you can't really weigh them out any better.

I've already done this, so I've lived what I'm preaching. Midsouth has W748 in stock right now. It's a great performer in any 223 rifle that will shoot, with a wide variety of bullets, you simply can't go wrong.

I've also got a Lyman 55 powder measure (among others). Believe me, with a good consistent technique, settling the powder when you first pour it in, then using the identical speed and force of lever throw, with the precise same type of flips with the knocker (I use two), that measure you've got right on your bench will eliminate those horrendous inconsistencies you're dealing with completely, provided you switch to a ball powder.

Do yourself a favor and pick up some Winchester 748 while it is available. It will throw charges out of your Lyman 55 measure like a dream and any 223 that won't shoot great with it has some glaring other issue to deal with.

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[mousegunner]

H335 measures like water for me on my Uniflo so I have no problem dropping into the case but check every 10 rounds. I drop a lower charge and trickle up my Varget and IMR 4895 and get sub moa groups. Seeing that a lot of powders were hard to get I didn't have a chance try others that may flow better but I have some proven loads for me and since they're not broke no need to fix them.

Bullseye can be a little off but not bad if I throw a little over or under since I do light target loads. HP38 and Titegroup throw very well so far but need more experince with them. Still I check every 10 rounds and check 2-4 times to make sure I don't double charge.

 

[RegionRat]

Here are your stats if you like.

What it implies is that you would want to test the ends of the range to see if that is okay for you. Eventually you would see a range (ES) of 6*0.2 = 1.2 grains where right now you are only seeing 0.9

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I don't recall a load development with the 223 that resulted with an accuracy node 0.9 gr wide, let alone 1.2 gr. Usually .4-.5 gr. So for the 110 you will need to trickle charge, AR should be fine for self-defense and plinking.

 

[JASmith]

I you haven’t already done so, try developing consistent charging routine.

Two challenges exist in getting consisten throw weights. The first is that the powder column takes a bit of jolting to settle into a consistent density gradient. The second is the tendency for single or several grains to hang up or hide in the meter and drop tube, Some powders do this more often than others.
For example, Throw ten or more charges at the start using the same sequnece you would in charging the cases. This will help settle the powder and get a consistent powder column density gradient.

Techniques I have used are:

1) If the charger has a built-in rapper use it after each handle throw both after the up and the down stroke.

2) If there is no rapper, than make sure that the handle hits the stop with a good click both in the up and the down strokes. This sends a small joit through the powder column or to completely empty empty the dispenser.

The chances are that using techniques like these will sharpen that bell curve and reduce the number and severity of outlier charge weights.

 

[wkdickinson]

No matter what technique you use, with a powder measure you will likely never be able to throw more consistently than +/- 0.2gr ES, with extruded powders. I've tried ever technique I could think with an RCBS Uniflow and 2 Lee measures and could never get there. A baffle in the hopper helps on a Uniflow.

But it really comes down to what your accuracy needs are. In the 1990's I made "Master" qualification in NRA High Power throwing every charge, because I used to think I could throw charges consistently - I have since learned I can't. Today I use an RCBS Chargemaster 1500 for everything. The CM1500 is still a comprimise, but more consistent than a powder measure.

 

[boltfluter]

H335 is your friend. Throw 10 charges to settle powder column, and then go for it! If H335 does not shoot bug holes in a .223 there is something wrong with the rifle.

Paul

 

[Rule 243]

I have three 223 rifles and I use BLC-2 because it flows like water thru my powder measure and measures consistently.
All three of my rifles shoot the same load and do so very accurately.
When using stick powders I hand weigh every charge no matter what caliber rifle I'm loading for.

To answer your question a couple tenths of a grain may not be a big difference but I would be concerned with the difference you're seeing.
Welcome back to reloading.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

For your 110 throw stick powder .1-.2 gr light into scale pan, trickle into pan on scale to target weight. Or upgrade to electronic measure( I haven't yet, but don't do a lot of high volume loading). As suggested run ball powder for AR/high volume with your measure. Always remember all scales have +,- error find loads that allow you a margin on both ends.

 

[RegionRat]

A few words on powder drop performance measurements and weight reporting standards.

In labs, we call the performance metric of a lab scale the "uncertainty". This is not to be confused with the smallest digits of the display. It represents a statistical confidence that the measurement is within that tolerance of what is being recorded.

An example is electronic scales that read to 0.1 gr but due to their uncertainty they are really only capable to +/- 0.16 gr (2 simga or 95% confidence level) when their rounding algorithm, calibration gain, and zero, are all considered.

The preamble here is to say that when we evaluate basic mechanical powder drops for industrial work, we use a good lab grade scale so that the uncertainty is well below +/- 0.1 gr. The concept of measurement quality in labs is based on the leverage factor of the uncertainty of the measurement instrument compared to what is being measured or reported.

We are expecting the powder drop data to be measured with a scale that has an uncertainty at least 4:1 times lower than the expected best performance or the smallest value. So say we expect the powder drop to be accurate to 0.1 grain 95% of the time, then we would want the scale to have an uncertainty of less than 0.025 gr as a quality control of the measurement report.

When a powder drop performance is measured, the uncertainty of the measurement scale can limit the discussion. Claims that powder drops being measured with scales that only read to 0.1 gr are limited first by the uncertainty of the scale. That doesn't mean that folks shouldn't use a 0.1 gr readout scale if that is all they have, it just means you have to take those measurements with a grain of salt. A powder drop measured with a 0.1 gr readout may in fact be pretty good, it is just that you don't really know unless you measure that performance with something that isn't much better in terms of uncertainty.

If it is important to you, measure at least 30 throws at Full, Half, Low hopper level. Then repeat the whole set on a different day. This will give you a decent idea of the drop's performance by just observing the highest and lowest value or any chage in the average. Always start the session with a calibration check and stable zero. Watch the temperature in the work space and note it in case it is very different than normal.

I takes lots of discipline in a real world shop to hold an open loop mechanical powder drop to less than 0.5 grains when dropping stick powders day in and day out. The definition of what 0.5 grains means in different places isn't the same unless we are using the same measurement quality standards.

Doing better than 0.5 grains as an individual hand loader is possible with stick powder, but it is far easier to incorporate a scale and just reject the extreme drops. When you have to run fast and don't want to stop for the scale, consider a ball powder since the performance is affected by the grain size.

Not every discussion in the forum has to stand up in court, but many folks don't have the lab background so it may help to hear about the standards and terminology as a separate post. YMMV

 

[joshb]

All the above info is good for your task. Welcome back.!! Just to add a bit of help:
Throwing ball powders can give you very consistent weights “IF” you use the same force with each throw. A gentle up and down will give you a different charge than slamming the handle up and down.
When I use stick powders, I weigh every charge.
Good luck!

 

[jrbauerjr]

Thank you all for the advice. I went to the range yesterday with the Savage 110 and my box of varied loads. There was only one flyer, the 25.9 one. I did cheat, since I was walking down to the target after every 3 to 5 shots with my 76 year old knees, I did the testing at 75 yards. I shot the 25.9 and the first 25 lighter loads. Surprisingly they all shot well with several of the 3 shots in a quarter sized spread. I should mention that the CCI small rifle primers have been sitting uncovered on my garage shelf for the past 11 years. The 4895 is a Dupont can from the late 60's and the 55 grain Speer bullets were bought in the early 70's when I was considering reloading for my Interarms Mauser (Why did I ever sell any of my guns...). I'm quite pleased....

Lessons, I'll shoot up the remainder in my AR15 and see how that turns out, probably not as well at a distance as the 110 has a good quality 24X and the AR has a 60's vintage no name 6X and my ancient eyes.. I will use a consistent routine with the measure and pick up some Winchester W748 for the 110 and reserve the 4895 for the AR.. Interesting Midsouth was sold out by the time I checked my messages..

Again, thank you all for your comments and I'm looking forward to having a good summer..

Jim

 

[joshb]

Just to widen your search, my favorite 223 powder is H335. BLc2 is also good.

 

[nmkid]

I recently purchased an FX 120i. Using my Lyman 55 has been very frustrating. It throws high then low. Then low and high. I guess I'll just keep working on it. Tried to adjust it to throw low and then trickle up. If I could get it to consistently throw low I would be happy. I weigh every round as I shot a max load of IMR 4350. The auto trickler kit is not in the cards for now.

 

[divingin]

For your 110 throw stick powder .1-.2 gr light into scale pan, trickle into pan on scale to target weight. Or upgrade to electronic measure( I haven't yet, but don't do a lot of high volume loading). As suggested run ball powder for AR/high volume with your measure. Always remember all scales have +,- error find loads that allow you a margin on both ends.

Be aware that trickling onto an electronic scale will probably have some degree of a learning curve.

Cheap scales (like less than $500 cheap) typically don't like registering small changes (like from trickling.) You can do it, but it takes figuring out what you have to do to get the scale to read what you want it to. Of course, it gets pickier the more precise you want to be.

 

[FIREPHOTO798]

Do you use the knocker on the No. 55 to settle the load before dropping it. I had a similar issue that resolved itself once I started "knocking" each load. I was seeing 0.5 gr variations with several powders. I attributed the improvement to "packing" each load in the cylinder rather than just letting it fall in. I found that I had to be consistent in how I snapped the knocker.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

H335 is your friend. Throw 10 charges to settle powder column, and then go for it! If H335 does not shoot bug holes in a .223 there is something wrong with the rifle.

Paul

Concur.

 

[ebb]

chargemaster from RCBS

 

[powderbrake]

I suggest you should always set the powder cavity in the Lyman 55 to be deep rather than wide. This keeps the shearing of the powder grains to a minimum, reduces the forces and makes for more accurate measuring.