Polygonal Twist and HBN

[Rock Knocker]

Hello, I havent been here in quite a while, I havent been doing any Fclass and very little long range shooting.

I have been reloading and shooting though. Ive got a 223 16" BHW 1-8" AR, with the poly twist I never ran into pressure signs with my traditional powders for bullet weight, out of curiosity I bought faster burning powders and the gun shot great, in most cases it kept shooting faster and more accurate, still almost no pressure signs.

Then I got to thinking about HBN, its effects sounded nearly identical to the effects of the poly twist. So I started lubing and buying faster burning powders.

My load data is off the charts. I want to see others try this and I want to try in more barrels and calibers SAFELY, years ago another member here did repeat my data with 18" BHW and 53 Vmax 3380fps. This was nearly a three year project and hundreds of rounds slowly going up. 223 LC brass, 53gr Barnes TSX w/HBN, 26.9gr(crunching) H322, 3300fps 16" carbine gas AR15. ...... 65SGK I did less testing but, HBN 65gr SGK I had up to 26.5gr Benchmark, no chrono. I have a picture of fired primers, I met a great member from here years ago and he let me shoot the 53 TSX over his Labradar.

I have a 1-4x Leupold VXR scope on the gun for night coyotes, it must be near 2MOA crosshair reticle, but ive gotten sub MOA groups at 100-300yards on several lucky occasions but it is noticeably printing groups half the size as what I can normally get from other decent loads.

Ive got enough HBN to give away a few sample if any BHW shooters want to try, Ive got some 140VLDs lubed but only a land and groove 6.5. I see BHW has some new "Claw" rifling only available in 6.5 now, they claim and improvement but I have found no info on it. Ive got a Savage target action I can switch barrels out on quick enough but I want to see others try this. 53gr TSX screaming from a 16", 150fps faster than Hornady H322 24" published data. This isnt a round I would like to shoot through the gun at tin cans for fun but it can be made lower. Those loads were the first repeatable signs of CCI450 flattening, A BIT, and they were compressed loads, a ball powder could help a bit, pressures always got jumpier when jamming the powder in, I stick with Hodgdons extreme for MN -30f to 100f yearly swings.

 

[GLShooter]

That's a great report. I've worked worked with BHW for years and have about 40 barrels. Consistently they like to be driven hard. I've never had one that a given charge from s manual that wouldn't exceed the published number.

Having worked a developed half a do,en wildcats the sell or produce it was astounding some of the performance we get. Check the American 30 and what it does. I did about 75% of the load development as we refined the reamer. It hits far above its weight.

I've not shot any HBN so I'm looking forward to your results.

 

[Webster]

Hello, I havent been here in quite a while, I havent been doing any Fclass and very little long range shooting.

I have been reloading and shooting though. Ive got a 223 16" BHW 1-8" AR, with the poly twist I never ran into pressure signs with my traditional powders for bullet weight, out of curiosity I bought faster burning powders and the gun shot great, in most cases it kept shooting faster and more accurate, still almost no pressure signs.

Then I got to thinking about HBN, its effects sounded nearly identical to the effects of the poly twist. So I started lubing and buying faster burning powders.

My load data is off the charts. I want to see others try this and I want to try in more barrels and calibers SAFELY, years ago another member here did repeat my data with 18" BHW and 53 Vmax 3380fps. This was nearly a three year project and hundreds of rounds slowly going up. 223 LC brass, 53gr Barnes TSX w/HBN, 26.9gr(crunching) H322, 3300fps 16" carbine gas AR15. ...... 65SGK I did less testing but, HBN 65gr SGK I had up to 26.5gr Benchmark, no chrono. I have a picture of fired primers, I met a great member from here years ago and he let me shoot the 53 TSX over his Labradar.

I have a 1-4x Leupold VXR scope on the gun for night coyotes, it must be near 2MOA crosshair reticle, but ive gotten sub MOA groups at 100-300yards on several lucky occasions but it is noticeably printing groups half the size as what I can normally get from other decent loads.

Ive got enough HBN to give away a few sample if any BHW shooters want to try, Ive got some 140VLDs lubed but only a land and groove 6.5. I see BHW has some new "Claw" rifling only available in 6.5 now, they claim and improvement but I have found no info on it. Ive got a Savage target action I can switch barrels out on quick enough but I want to see others try this. 53gr TSX screaming from a 16", 150fps faster than Hornady H322 24" published data. This isnt a round I would like to shoot through the gun at tin cans for fun but it can be made lower. Those loads were the first repeatable signs of CCI450 flattening, A BIT, and they were compressed loads, a ball powder could help a bit, pressures always got jumpier when jamming the powder in, I stick with Hodgdons extreme for MN -30f to 100f yearly swings.

To much tinkering. Find 1 good hunting load and stick with it. You don't want to spend the rest of our life experimenting with a hunting rifle.

 

[Rock Knocker]

That's a great report. I've worked worked with BHW for years and have about 40 barrels. Consistently they like to be driven hard. I've never had one that a given charge from s manual that wouldn't exceed the published number.

Having worked a developed half a do,en wildcats the sell or produce it was astounding some of the performance we get. Check the American 30 and what it does. I did about 75% of the load development as we refined the reamer. It hits far above its weight.

I've not shot any HBN so I'm looking forward to your results.

American 30 sounds like it would be a great candidate for BHW and HBN. Ive read the less overbore cartridges respond even better to HBN, so 223 isnt an ideal cartridge.

I think there is something in this combo especially for the 308 FT/R crowd. I think 308 would have to shine here, im just guessing but with a 24"-26" barrel you could gain, maybe 300fps conservatively? My little carbine AR is shooting this load bizarrely flat, I dont have a chrono myself so I shoot at different ranges and match drops to ballistic calculators.... When I found this combo a couple years ago, I think i was 1" high at 100yards and the bullet dropped 5 inches at 300yards and with my ballistic calculations that was matching 4000fps data, I came here and made a bit of a fool of myself and thats when I ended up lucky enough to meet a member to get real data.

Im just a country boy without endless funding and im in the middle of a muscle car rebuild by myself. In the near future I will likely order a BHW barrel for the Target action. Its 260AI now, I like the 6.5mm but if I chamber for .308 I could do some FT/R shooting to really see what it stacks up to. Ive never seen or heard of BHW barrels on the competition line regardless of the HBN theories.

Webster, I could never stop tinkering. I just got shotgun loading supplies two weeks ago and im testing out buckshot now. I dont have a TV, I need something to do....

 

[Lone Hunter]

I have a BHW in .264 LBC ( same as 6.5 Grendel ) with the polygonal rifling ( 3P ) and I am very impressed with its accuracy and speeds. I didn’t shoot any coated bullets as I was more than satisfied with the results I got.

 

[Rock Knocker]

I have a BHW in .264 LBC ( same as 6.5 Grendel ) with the polygonal rifling ( 3P ) and I am very impressed with its accuracy and speeds. I didn’t shoot any coated bullets as I was more than satisfied with the results I got.

Ive been thinking of 6.5 grendel also, that would be the quickest and easiest way to get another BHW barrel, then just build another upper for it. 6.5 AR barrels are all that BHW is offering their new "claw" rifling pattern in also.

If you want to try any HBN I can send a sample, ive got a jar of it, enough to last me a lifetime.

 

[Fast14riot]

I had a 24" BHW in 20 practical, that thing was a laser! 32gr vmax at 4100fps using imr4198. My 100 and 200 yard hold were 0.1" apart.

 

[Lone Hunter]

Ive been thinking of 6.5 grendel also, that would be the quickest and easiest way to get another BHW barrel, then just build another upper for it. 6.5 AR barrels are all that BHW is offering their new "claw" rifling pattern in also.

If you want to try any HBN I can send a sample, ive got a jar of it, enough to last me a lifetime.

Thank You for the offer but for right now everything is shooting pretty good except my 6x45. It’s probably me but it’s just not shooting like I expected. Time for different powders and bullets. The Grendel is pretty wicked. I have the BHW Barrel on an AR and a Howa Mini Action and the AR outshoots it. Never heard much badmouthing about BHW barrels either.

 

[searcher]

I started experimenting with moly around 15-20 years ago and came to like it so much, I have tended to shoot most of my high-volume varmint loads with it. During that time, HBN came along and I compared it to the results (velocity, accuracy and ease of cleaning copper from the barrel) of using moly. The specs show that HBN "should" work better, especially in the velocity gain department - but my results showed them to perform about the same. I think the reason for that is the "slippier" the bullet, the more powder it took just to attain the same velocity as without a coating. In my .223's, it takes about 3/10th of a grain more powder to attain the same velocity as a bare bullet (with moly) so the powder I used typically dictated whether there was even room for more powder. In the .223's there typically is. In my 6 BR, Dasher and PPC - there was not. The benefits came from the ability to add yet more powder to get that higher velocity. That was all too often hampered by lack of case capacity. And I think that is why I think the moly has the slightest edge. Aside from accuracy, I did not find any further reduced cleaning regimen using HBN, nor change in the average accuracy attained in any of the loads. I still load a lot with the HBN because I bought an 8 oz. container. Probably enough to coat 100,000 bullets?! But I think I actually prefer moly. With the loads where I did have room to up the powder, I typically ran into pressure before reaching a significant velocity boost. So, the reasons I continue to use moly and HBN are more related to ease of barrel cleaning - and what I believe to be lengthened barrel life. I have a few barrels that have never shot a bare bullet and have crazy high round counts on them. While the rifling in the throat area does get pretty bare, the barrel portion beyond the throat remains in better shape than the barrels I have used with only bare bullets. There are surely differences in brands of barrels, batches of barrels, differences caused by different powders and weights of bullets - all which would "disprove" any of my thinking. So in the end - it just might be a cleaner barrel done more quickly. It is fun experimenting with all of this stuff.

 

[Rock Knocker]

I started experimenting with moly around 15-20 years ago and came to like it so much, I have tended to shoot most of my high-volume varmint loads with it. During that time, HBN came along and I compared it to the results (velocity, accuracy and ease of cleaning copper from the barrel) of using moly. The specs show that HBN "should" work better, especially in the velocity gain department - but my results showed them to perform about the same. I think the reason for that is the "slippier" the bullet, the more powder it took just to attain the same velocity as without a coating. In my .223's, it takes about 3/10th of a grain more powder to attain the same velocity as a bare bullet (with moly) so the powder I used typically dictated whether there was even room for more powder. In the .223's there typically is. In my 6 BR, Dasher and PPC - there was not. The benefits came from the ability to add yet more powder to get that higher velocity. That was all too often hampered by lack of case capacity. And I think that is why I think the moly has the slightest edge. Aside from accuracy, I did not find any further reduced cleaning regimen using HBN, nor change in the average accuracy attained in any of the loads. I still load a lot with the HBN because I bought an 8 oz. container. Probably enough to coat 100,000 bullets?! But I think I actually prefer moly. With the loads where I did have room to up the powder, I typically ran into pressure before reaching a significant velocity boost. So, the reasons I continue to use moly and HBN are more related to ease of barrel cleaning - and what I believe to be lengthened barrel life. I have a few barrels that have never shot a bare bullet and have crazy high round counts on them. While the rifling in the throat area does get pretty bare, the barrel portion beyond the throat remains in better shape than the barrels I have used with only bare bullets. There are surely differences in brands of barrels, batches of barrels, differences caused by different powders and weights of bullets - all which would "disprove" any of my thinking. So in the end - it just might be a cleaner barrel done more quickly. It is fun experimenting with all of this stuff.

Good info. I havent tried moly or even HBN in a land and groove barrel yet.

But that matches what I found when starting out, I would run out of case room for powder but ive only shot stick powders with the HBN. I finally decided to start buying faster powders out of curiosity, I still dont think Ive reached the limit, I could have, but where I left off my testing was a compressed load of H322 w/ 53gr TSX, I have a feeling some of the pressure signs were due to the compressed case of powder. Hard to believe, and I havent mustered up the courage yet but I was going to continue with H4198 powder and 53gr TSX, thats the next faster burning powder in Hodgdons extreme line.

Ive got H335 around, I havent started a HBN test with that powder, I dont know if I could fill a case with that and see pressure signs or not...

 

[lgwatson]

Hello, I havent been here in quite a while, I havent been doing any Fclass and very little long range shooting.

I have been reloading and shooting though. Ive got a 223 16" BHW 1-8" AR, with the poly twist I never ran into pressure signs with my traditional powders for bullet weight, out of curiosity I bought faster burning powders and the gun shot great, in most cases it kept shooting faster and more accurate, still almost no pressure signs.

Then I got to thinking about HBN, its effects sounded nearly identical to the effects of the poly twist. So I started lubing and buying faster burning powders.

My load data is off the charts. I want to see others try this and I want to try in more barrels and calibers SAFELY, years ago another member here did repeat my data with 18" BHW and 53 Vmax 3380fps. This was nearly a three year project and hundreds of rounds slowly going up. 223 LC brass, 53gr Barnes TSX w/HBN, 26.9gr(crunching) H322, 3300fps 16" carbine gas AR15. ...... 65SGK I did less testing but, HBN 65gr SGK I had up to 26.5gr Benchmark, no chrono. I have a picture of fired primers, I met a great member from here years ago and he let me shoot the 53 TSX over his Labradar.

I have a 1-4x Leupold VXR scope on the gun for night coyotes, it must be near 2MOA crosshair reticle, but ive gotten sub MOA groups at 100-300yards on several lucky occasions but it is noticeably printing groups half the size as what I can normally get from other decent loads.

Ive got enough HBN to give away a few sample if any BHW shooters want to try, Ive got some 140VLDs lubed but only a land and groove 6.5. I see BHW has some new "Claw" rifling only available in 6.5 now, they claim and improvement but I have found no info on it. Ive got a Savage target action I can switch barrels out on quick enough but I want to see others try this. 53gr TSX screaming from a 16", 150fps faster than Hornady H322 24" published data. This isnt a round I would like to shoot through the gun at tin cans for fun but it can be made lower. Those loads were the first repeatable signs of CCI450 flattening, A BIT, and they were compressed loads, a ball powder could help a bit, pressures always got jumpier when jamming the powder in, I stick with Hodgdons extreme for MN -30f to 100f yearly swings.

I coat with HBN. Hasn't affected accuracy and I don't get large velocity changes.

 

[Rock Knocker]

I coat with HBN. Hasn't affected accuracy and I don't get large velocity changes.

Have you not noticed any benefits? What caliber and barrels are you using?

 

[lgwatson]

Have you not noticed any benefits? What caliber and barrels are you using?

Maybe a little less velocity, but I don't load hot loads. I look for accuracy. I think it may make a difference in releasing the bullet when fired. I think it cleans up easier than moly.

 

[Rock Knocker]

Maybe a little less velocity, but I don't load hot loads. I look for accuracy. I think it may make a difference in releasing the bullet when fired. I think it cleans up easier than moly.

Land and groove rifleing or Polygonal rifling?