Please identify this brass.

[Xerothermic]

The headstamp says WRA (Winchester Repeating Arms??) with the number 65 and a little circle with a + sign inside. The brass, all 5# 200 pcs +/-, is a funky, washed-out gold color. It doesn't look like normal brass, but it is not steel. The neck measures around .304, primer pockets .205 with the case length being 2.003-6. The case mouths are heavily beveled/ flared with very sharp, jagged edges.



Is this just old military brass? My .308 Savage 99 chokes and jams on 7.62. My brother just sent me the brass, that was part of another brother's estate, to see if I could make use of it. What you think?

 

[drop_point]

Yes, looks like 7.62x51 NATO made by Winchester. Number stamp is the year.

 

[Adam in WI]

.304" inside or outside?

 

[Xerothermic]

Well, thanks guys. I was hoping I had enough .308 to last to the end of days. On the bright side, I now know what that little emblem and the number means.

 

[Xerothermic]

.304" inside or outside?

Inside. About .336 outside.

 

[6.5 forever]

Yes, looks like 7.62x51 NATO made by Winchester. Number stamp is the year.

Second on this

 

[hoosiermike]

The + inside the circle indicates it was loaded for machineguns. That means that the initial loading
was loaded hotter than regular 7.62 x 51. It probably needs to be resized with a small base die to
fit in your Savage 99. Machinegun loadings require higher pressure to assure cycling when the
machinegun gets hot from continuous firing, the case head expands more as a result. Sometimes
the small base die works and sometimes not so well.

 

[dhagerty40]

since this brass is from 1965, it probably has already been resized many times....

 

[GotRDid]

Never heard that NATO Spec 7.62X51 is higher pressure than commercial .308.
I’ve shot probably a metric ton of it through M-60 MGs and M-14s as well as my M1As and most of my bolt guns.
I do know that the chambers on many MGs are a bit more generous than SAAMI specs for reliability in adverse conditions, so case head expansion on brass fired in them may indeed need a Small Base sizer die. Likewise, many MG and M14 Barrels May have been near the end of their Service Life and brass from them may not be salvageable.

 

[Laurie]

The + inside the circle indicates it was loaded for machineguns.

No. The circled cross means compliance with NATO ammunition standards and dimensions for the calibre through the appropriate cartridge 'STANAG' specification. It must be stamped on any and every cartridge case-head being manufactured for military use by any NATO member irrespective of cartridge, calibre, or intended purpose/loading.

 

[Adam in WI]

Never heard that NATO Spec 7.62X51 is higher pressure than commercial .308.

Because it isn't. I remember reading somewhere that users of the Ishapore 2A1 Enfield rifles should avoid using commercial 308 due to the higher pressures, though I don't know what difference 2000 psi would make. Laurie most likely has better knowledge of it.

 

[Laurie]

Because it isn't. I remember reading somewhere that users of the Ishapore 2A1 Enfield rifles should avoid using commercial 308 due to the higher pressures, though I don't know what difference 2000 psi would make. Laurie most likely has better knowledge of it.

That could be due to more than one reason. It's difficult to equate NATO or CIP maximum pressure specs with those from US SAAMI as although using the same pressure measuring techniques and technology, they measure pressures at different points on the cartridge case.

I suspect though that it may be about bore and bullet diameters. NATO originally specified a tighter bore and smaller bullet diameter for 7.62X51 than SAAMI did for 308 Win, so most 7.62 'cooking' ammo has bullets around 0.3073-0.3077-inch diameter compared to a nominal 0.3080 in SAAMI 308 Win, but sometimes as high as 0.3085". In some cases, 308 Win commercial ammo can produce higher pressures.

This is the historical reason for 'Fullbore' / 'Target Rifle' / 'Palma Rifle' builds often specifying a 0.298" / 0.3075 or 0.3076" bore/groove barrel instead of the usual 0.300/0.3080" as they used arsenal manufactured 7.62 ammo. This continues today and all top UK 'TR's shooters use such barrels and the GB NRA contracted 308 Win ammo is loaded to slightly lower pressures to allow for it. When RUAG (RWS brand) had the contract some years back, it caused a complete cock-up with one year's lot being over-pressure in some of these rifles and producing hard extraction and even blown primers in that year's 'Imperial Meeting' in hot (by our standards) weather. Our NRA returned the entire lot. RUAG then pressure-tested samples and found they were within CIP tolerance, repackaged it all as something like '308 Win Match' and put it back on commercial sale. Some later turned up at Bisley and our NRA had to warn TR shooters not to buy it! (It uses the original 155gn SMK p/n 2155 incidentally.)

Personally, I'd not shoot one of these 2A1 rifles with anything other than very mild handloads. The SMLE is an unsuitable action for 7.62 / 308 even though Ishapore Arsenal allegedly used a higher grade steel than on older 0.303" rifles. Even the much beefier Number 4 action introduced during WW2 is marginal for the 7.62/308 although it'll handle any factory round that's within specification, but gives no leeway to the careless or reckless handloader.