Does anyone know for sure if the tips deform in flight? At what distance and velocity? There seems to be a lot of tipped bullets for sell all over the Net. Is it true or are people parinoid & drank the cool aid. My guns shoot Amax's very well but I have not shot much past 300 yds. I have built some guns that I want to start shooting long with. .260, 7mm WSM, and 6.5X284. Should a guy pick up some of these deals on the Hornady & Nosler plastic tip bullets or shoot ELD's and Bergers?
Plastic tipped bullets?
- Thread starter jwolf
- Start date
If you listen to Hornady they will tell you their ELD bullet is the answer. When they first started pimping the ELD bullet they went so far as to say that the tips on the standard BT bullets would melt in flight therefore reducing BC. I believe they have now softened a little on that stance due to some of the blowback they received from the public. In my opinion it was simply a marketing ploy from the beginning, however there are differing opinions I am sure. One easy way to find out would be for all of us to ask Hornady if they would replace our "defective" standard BT bullets with the new ELD'S. if that happened I bet you would see Hornady screaming uncle.
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Do a search on here. This will get you started> http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/hornadys-tip-melting-findings.3886502/
Hornady sure stands behind the new bullets claiming heat shield tips will not melt throughout their range. Hell, I've shot them into sand out to and beyond 900 yards and recovered some of the Amax tips. The ones I recovered we're NOT melted. Sure I suppose they could melt beyond that range but I'll never need to worry about it for what my needs are. Personally, I think new " language " technology sells. The new ELDs are selling like crazy. Yes mostly because Amax bullets are not made anymore, but also because we shooters have to have the latest in technology and CANT have bullet tips melting.
I could buy into your theory if the ELD's cost more than the VMAX, but they don't. So I ask myself why the change? The story from Hornady was the VMAX would deform at speeds over 3200 fps. Not sure how anyone could test that or know it, but they claimed the new ELD was a different compounded tip that would not deform at the higher speeds. I shoot them almost exclusively in a 223 Savage. They perform extremely well. Not tried the VMAX, and I reload to 2750 or so.
As my 1st post, I hope it's not too soon to be calling other members out but... I believe you're incorrect.
They (Hornady) did discontinue the 105 grain Amax. https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/#!/
I know this because I shoot 6mm (243 win), and they were my prefered projectile.
I had to switch to the 105gr BTHP Match, it was ~6 months before the ELD's became available here (Canada).
it could be true, but based on my conversation with hornady, it would be a MARKETING issue,
not a design requirement.
103 and 108 eld's on their list today
not a design requirement.
103 and 108 eld's on their list today
I'll buy that statement by Nosler as it's basis is alot more factual. We all know bullets DO change while Impacting but melting in flight is speculate when not proven. I can't prove it from shooting, that's certain.
If Hornady's V-Max bullet tips are melting why haven't they taken them off the market? If they were melting I think we would have heard about it many years ago. Accuracy would have been non-existent.
But what we do hear is that the V-Max bullet is very accurate in many shooter's guns. For many it's their preferred bullet. It's mine.
And if the tips would melt I think Hornady would have discovered this when they were doing their initial R&D and prior to product release.
But what we do hear is that the V-Max bullet is very accurate in many shooter's guns. For many it's their preferred bullet. It's mine.
And if the tips would melt I think Hornady would have discovered this when they were doing their initial R&D and prior to product release.
Some members here need to brush up on this issue and read Hornady's explanation of the phenomenon:
IDENTIFYING A PROBLEM – AERODYNAMIC HEATING
https://www.hornady.com/heat-shield
IDENTIFYING A PROBLEM – AERODYNAMIC HEATING
https://www.hornady.com/heat-shield
One thing that sounds a little fishy is how Hornady says they concluded that the tips melting must be the problem because the BC of the bullet starts to degrade at longer ranges.
While Sierra Matchking bullets have no plastic tips and many (probably most) have degrading BC's at longer ranges according to Sierra.
While Sierra Matchking bullets have no plastic tips and many (probably most) have degrading BC's at longer ranges according to Sierra.
Why ?
Tip temp is related to velocity and TOF.
Even the Concorde had to allow for temps at high speed in its design.
Now I'm not a long range shooter but a better heat resisting polymer tip for extended ranges makes perfect sense to me. We've all used projectiles outside their intended use and found limitations in their performance, be it terminal or trajectory. That Hornady should pull some of their product from the marketplace so not to give themselves a bad name when those products that are/could be used for extreme range don't live up to expectation is just protecting their reputation.
I don't see what all the fuss is about.
No I don't think anyone is saying Hornady has a bad product and should remove or pull it due to any issues. In fact it's just the opposite. I think your hearing that NOBODY has had the issues Hornady is saying happens with melting tips. Basically wondering why the need for a new bullet. The Amax satisfied everyone that shot it. At least at the price point of the bullet, it was really hard to beat. You hear one of the techs in the video say " Nobody's bullets will have the consistency in accuracy and bc as ours due to the plastic tips"! That is not a correct statement. Berger hasn't given up any accuracy to Hornady that I'm aware of since the new bullets have come out. For me, Hornady bullets work great. I'm not a competitive shooter and enjoy spending less on bullets and shooting more. I have 1000s of Amax in various calibers and weights. They are a fine bullet for my hunting and shooting needs. I'm simply saying I have never seen a melted tip on an amax bullet. The bc degrading may be from changing bullet profile beyond 1000 yards. Also Berger, Sierra, lapua, Nosler etc has this same issue. Must be that their bullets too are degrading from heat even without the plastic tips. Not really sure and it doesn't totally sound like Hornady is either. They comment that " It has to be that the tips are melting" as they notice the drag profile change after several hundred yards into the 1000 yard range. They ARE the rocket scientist here, not me. Obviously they know alot more than I do on this subject. My experience is only mine and I haven't seen any melting out to and beyond 800+ yards. If the melting is so subtle that I cannot physically see it, I certainly can admit for many, the change was needed. For me, at the ranges I shoot, I wouldn't have needed a different tipped bullet. Maybe they should have continued making the original amax and called it the A1 and the new ELD the A2. One for under 1000 yards and the other for beyond 1000 yards. Maybe only the heaviest 28, 30 and 338 bullets should be the ELD. Regardless, it's a win win for Hornady and it's consumers. Hornady has great bullets in both there eld and amax line as well as all the other bullets they produce. Regardless, I'll continue using eld bullets once my amax bullets are long gone.
The facts are in, and the truth is out. If plastic tips were the issue with underperformance compared to the published B.C. it would be a simple job of switching out the plastic used to mold the tips. But they didn't do that. They redesigned just about everything that wasn't performing well. The 105 A-Max that shot so well out of my 6mmBR is no long available. The 108 has replaced it. Different shape altogether and no surprise, has a better B.C.
If I were in charge of the marketing division, I would NEVER admit that my main products performance numbers were inflated, I'd blame it on "melting tips" and then come up with some better designs.
Do you see the other bullet manufacturers scrambling to replace plastic tips? By the time the sonic pressure wave has moved back behind the tip, it's gone transonic anyway and begun to tumble.
But that's just my "I'm not a rocket scientist" opinion. What's also my opinion is that their products perform very well, especially for their price point. And I am first to admit that I appreciate that and do use them.
If I were in charge of the marketing division, I would NEVER admit that my main products performance numbers were inflated, I'd blame it on "melting tips" and then come up with some better designs.
Do you see the other bullet manufacturers scrambling to replace plastic tips? By the time the sonic pressure wave has moved back behind the tip, it's gone transonic anyway and begun to tumble.
But that's just my "I'm not a rocket scientist" opinion. What's also my opinion is that their products perform very well, especially for their price point. And I am first to admit that I appreciate that and do use them.
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