pistol grouping low -new sights or me

[johnfkingmatrix]

purchased new sights for gfs h&k p2k - reputable well known combat style night sights standard height. i have the same sights on my fullsize handgun with no issues. neither of us are experts but both of us are grouping ~2.5"> at 8 yd consistently.. with this gun about 3" low. no windage issues.. we usually shoot playing cards now we have to hold over.. lining up top of blades over target per manufacturer instruction. they say zerod at 10yd

hk factory sights were fine
im quick to blame the new sight ,but manufacturer telling me theres never been an issue with that model (shrug) and I wanna make sure variables eliminated before chopping it.

assuming sound fundamentals is there anything that would cause this that im unaware of?

POI V POA at 8vs 10ydzero should be negligible, yes?
-ammo doesnt effect this close right?
-how easy is it to have some top down paralax thing going on with iron sights? is that even a thing


what confounds it is that with lazer bore sighter dark room it doesnt appear to be that far off/if at all.. not sure hoew trustworthy that is. so that leaves me questioning if its ammo/outside sunlight/paralax?

appreciating all insight,
thanks

 

[Eagle Six]

If it were me, I would measure the front and rear sights of both the factory (which are no problem) and the "reputable well known combat style night sights" and compared the difference in height. If there is a difference, that is your answer, simply conform the new sights to the old (a jewelers file may be your friend).

If there is no difference and the factory sights are not night sites, I would question what is different in your sight alignment between the factory and the new sights, as in don't use the night site dot for sight alignment. These are just some quick thoughts I have.

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

hah. theyre trijicon HD. just wasnt trying to slander if it was my fault, but i guess its pertinent

 

[Eagle Six]

I would place a small piece of tape over the front dot and the two rear dots and shoot it with the same sight alignment as the factory sights and see if that brings the POI up. Often I have seen student bury the front dot in the rear slot trying to get the top of the front dot level with the top of the rear dots and they will have a tendency to shoot low. Just a suggestion.

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

awesome suggestion, will try. that brain/eye issue could explain why it seems ok indoor w laser

 

[Gil P.]

awesome suggestion, will try. that brain/eye issue could explain why it seems ok indoor w laser

Get yourself some dummy rounds and mix them with live rounds in a magazine. When you pull the trigger on a dummy round and the gun doesn't fire, check to see where your sights are pointed the moment the firing pin falls. This will tell you if you have a flinch you're unaware of.

 

[std7mag]

Getting back to shooting pistol after corpal tunnel surgery on both hands, I had the same issue. Decent group sizing, just low.
Took some adjustment to the way I grip to straighten things out again.

 

[rr2030]

Face the target, grip the Pistol, close your eyes, raise the pistol to eye height, open your eyes, what is the sight alignment ?

 

[SSL]

purchased new sights for gfs h&k p2k - reputable well known combat style night sights standard height. i have the same sights on my fullsize handgun with no issues. neither of us are experts but both of us are grouping ~2.5"> at 8 yd consistently.. with this gun about 3" low. no windage issues.. we usually shoot playing cards now we have to hold over.. lining up top of blades over target per manufacturer instruction. they say zerod at 10yd

hk factory sights were fine
im quick to blame the new sight ,but manufacturer telling me theres never been an issue with that model (shrug) and I wanna make sure variables eliminated before chopping it.

assuming sound fundamentals is there anything that would cause this that im unaware of?

POI V POA at 8vs 10ydzero should be negligible, yes?
-ammo doesnt effect this close right?
-how easy is it to have some top down paralax thing going on with iron sights? is that even a thing


what confounds it is that with lazer bore sighter dark room it doesnt appear to be that far off/if at all.. not sure hoew trustworthy that is. so that leaves me questioning if its ammo/outside sunlight/paralax?

appreciating all insight,
thanks

It might not be you. Back several years ago I decided to replace the sights on my 1911 (Commander size) with tritium sights. I ordered a set listed for my particular configuration and installed them. First attempt at using them resulted in multiple groups consistently 4 inches low at 15 yards. It of course only got worse as distance increased. When I contacted the manufacturer, I was told it had to be me...their sight configuration was scientifically designed to be perfect, I must not be shooting right (after 20 years of successful competition in various handgun disciplines), I had installed them wrong (same time-frame building my own competition 1911s), yada yada yada. I eventually replaced them with adjustable sights and marked that manufacturer (evidently no longer in business) off as a lost cause.
Bottom line - if the only change is your sights and you were happy with your original sight/POA combination, it is probably the sights.

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

thanks all! yeah i can pretty confidently say its not flinch..i mix dummy rounds in every session (1-2x week) /slow mo filming /good grouping.

two questions
- the front to rear sight distance is ~1/2 inch closer than on my fullsize gun. is this enough to make it that much more temperamental? its not like im shooting a snubby 1.5" lol

-turtling my neck a little more seems to remedy a lot of the problem, which has me wondering.. what is perfect neck/turtle amount? since it seems somewhat arbitrary, and I DON'T have to do that at all w other platform.

why am i all the sudden having to turtle??
based on today's turtle session im starting to think the sights are fine ;/

hk p2000 (problem)vs walther ppq by the way. both running trijicon hd

Looking forward to further insight! ty

 

[Eagle Six]

two questions
- the front to rear sight distance is ~1/2 inch closer than on my fullsize gun. is this enough to make it that much more temperamental? its not like im shooting a snubby 1.5" lol

-turtling my neck a little more seems to remedy a lot of the problem, which has me wondering.. what is perfect neck/turtle amount? since it seems somewhat arbitrary, and I DON'T have to do that at all w other platform.

why am i all the sudden having to turtle??
based on today's turtle session im starting to think the sights are fine ;/

1st, I wouldn't think 1/2" closer would cause it to be temperamental, but it might have a small contribution to you becoming more temperamental.

2nd, I think the perfect turtle amount is NONE. However, there may be times when some turtling may be advantageous. There may be times during a fight for example, you are in a supine position shooting between your legs or off one other the legs, you probably will need to turtle your next/head to get clear vision on your sights unless you are shooting upward at an angle that doesn't require it, or you are shooting without getting a sight alignment.

A little bit of head movement is beneficial for most, but I have never found the neck turtle thing to be of value.

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

thanks all! yeah i can pretty confidently say its not flinch..i mix dummy rounds in every session (1-2x week) /slow mo filming /good grouping.

two questions
- the front to rear sight distance is ~1/2 inch closer than on my fullsize gun. is this enough to make it that much more temperamental? its not like im shooting a snubby 1.5" lol

-turtling my neck a little more seems to remedy a lot of the problem, which has me wondering.. what is perfect neck/turtle amount? since it seems somewhat arbitrary, and I DON'T have to do that at all w other platform.

why am i all the sudden having to turtle??

hk p2000 (problem)vs walther ppq by the way

Looking forward to further insight! ty

1st, I wouldn't think 1/2" closer would cause it to be temperamental, but it might have a small contribution to you becoming more temperamental.

2nd, I think the perfect turtle amount is NONE. However, there may be times when some turtling may be advantageous. There may be times during a fight for example, you are in a supine position shooting between your legs or off one other the legs, you probably will need to turtle your next/head to get clear vision on your sights unless you are shooting upward at an angle that doesn't require it, or you are shooting without getting a sight alignment.

A little bit of head movement is beneficial for most, but I have never found the neck turtle thing to be of value.

shooting at extreme target angles like low to ground or up on a ledge would require turtle?

 

[Eagle Six]

shooting at extreme target angles like low to ground or up on a ledge would require turtle?

To clarify your question, are you standing up? If so, no I wouldn't turtle my neck I would simply turn my head down for a low to ground, unless that low to ground was almost at my feet. Same if I was shooting up at something. If I was prone and needed height so the bullet would clear an obstacle, I might have to turtle my neck back to get sight alignment and sight picture again if I were using sights. If I were out of flexibility of bending/twisting my head and it was inadequate to get sight alignment, regardless of the position, and turtling was enough to allow me to get on the sights that would be reason enough for me to use the technique.

I think the reason many may use turtling is to get their arms in a straighter line with the line of recoil so recoil was better absorbed by the shoulders to reduce sight rise. If that works better for any shooter during competition and they like it, I see no reason not to use it. If they are training for defense/offense, I think they are better off avoiding the technique unless they find themselves is a position of exception. That's how I do it.

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

shooting at extreme target angles like low to ground or up on a ledge would require turtle

To clarify your question, are you standing up? If so, no I wouldn't turtle my neck I would simply turn my head down for a low to ground, unless that low to ground was almost at my feet. Same if I was shooting up at something. If I was prone and needed height so the bullet would clear an obstacle, I might have to turtle my neck back to get sight alignment and sight picture again if I were using sights. If I were out of flexibility of bending/twisting my head and it was inadequate to get sight alignment, regardless of the position, and turtling was enough to allow me to get on the sights that would be reason enough for me to use the technique.

I think the reason many may use turtling is to get their arms in a straighter line with the line of recoil so recoil was better absorbed by the shoulders to reduce sight rise. If that works better for any shooter during competition and they like it, I see no reason not to use it. If they are training for defense/offense, I think they are better off avoiding the technique unless they find themselves is a position of exception. That's how I do it.

thanks for your patience.

yes standing..ive never had to think much about head position, I just shoot the way I stand will a slight forward lean at the waist, and shoulders rolled forward but not shrugged. what is the "correct answer" in regards to making sure that front+rear sight is actually lined up with your eyes, since that seems to be the underlying issue with this gun+sight combo for some reason. it seems possible for one to have eyes above rear sight and not know it?

is there a kinesthetic/tactile test to see if your sights and eyes actually are positioned perfectly, like a yardstick or something?

academically, it seems that if I'm bringing the sights up to my eyes while standing in a neutral stance, all 3 would only line up if I'm shooting a face level Target, unless im just hinging forward or backwards at hips to control pitch.

does that make sense?

 

[Eagle Six]

thanks for your patience.

I have an extreme amount of patience when learning. I use that same amount when I am passing on to others something that may be of use to them. I advise students to always question and not take anything as gospel until they have confirmed it works well for them, or at least better. What I don't have patience for are people being stupid, obnoxious, and/or rude. For them I have a T-Shirt with a pocket on the left breast. On the pocket is embroidered with, "Patience, what you have when there are too many witnesses".

yes standing..ive never had to think much about head position, I just shoot the way I stand will a slight forward lean at the waist, and shoulders rolled forward but not shrugged. what is the "correct answer" in regards to making sure that front+rear sight is actually lined up with your eyes, since that seems to be the underlying issue with this gun+sight combo for some reason. it seems possible for one to have eyes above rear sight and not know it?

is there a kinesthetic/tactile test to see if your sights and eyes actually are positioned perfectly, like a yardstick or something?

There are some aids, but the best, easiest, and cheapest we carry with us and we should use them. When we look at the rear sight from behind, we see a notch and the top which is flat. When we look at the front sight from behind we see a post with a flat on top. To achieve proper sight alignment we look through the notch in the rear sight to see the post of the front sight. We adjust the alignment with our wrist until the space on the left and right sides of the front post is even when seeing through the rear sight notch, and the top flat of the front sight is aligned and level with the top flat of the rear sight.

When this is done properly, we have a sight line from our eye through/pass the rear sight to the front sight. The important alignment points are the inside of the rear sight notch relationship/centered sides of the front sight post. And, the alignment of both the front sight post flat top being level with the flat top of the rear sight. If we focus on the front sight post, the rear sight notch will be a little blurry but easy to center the post in the notch as well as alignment of the top flats.

academically, it seems that if I'm bringing the sights up to my eyes while standing in a neutral stance, all 3 would only line up if I'm shooting a face level Target, unless im just hinging forward or backwards at hips to control pitch.

does that make sense?

Assume a natural relaxed standing position. Bring our gun up, arms extended, obtain perfect sight alignment on a target the same height as our eye to complete the sight picture. Without moving our shoulders, head, arms, wrist, hands, now bend at the waist forward and we have changed the pitch angle of our sight alignment/sight picture. Most people can continue to bend at the waist until the muzzle points between their feet, similar to touching our toes. That is on way we can change the pitch, or direction of our aim and it works to move the muzzle up or down as well as sideways left or right.

Not withstanding an injury or body deformities, our body is a wonderfully flexible gun mount. Our best marksmanship is not always obtained with the so called perfect body position. I use the most relaxed perfect standing body position to first obtain basic marksmanship skills. Once that is achieved I want to develop skills that provide target sight alignment regardless of the shooting stance obstruction I may have to deal with. One simple example would be, hanging upside down from a swinging rope (as in rappelling) with the left hand as a brake while shooting a handgun with the right at a moving target 20 yards in distance. I'm going to be using the same sight alignment I use while in a stabilized standing position. I will use body muscles to twist and turn my joints to achieve the alignment necessary to achieve POI within my bodies flexibility or change my position to achieve it.

And, yes your questions make sense.

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

I have an extreme amount of patience when learning. I use that same amount when I am passing on to others something that may be of use to them. I advise students to always question and not take anything as gospel until they have confirmed it works well for them, or at least better. What I don't have patience for are people being stupid, obnoxious, and/or rude. For them I have a T-Shirt with a pocket on the left breast. On the pocket is embroidered with, "Patience, what you have when there are too many witnesses".



There are some aids, but the best, easiest, and cheapest we carry with us and we should use them. When we look at the rear sight from behind, we see a notch and the top which is flat. When we look at the front sight from behind we see a post with a flat on top. To achieve proper sight alignment we look through the notch in the rear sight to see the post of the front sight. We adjust the alignment with our wrist until the space on the left and right sides of the front post is even when seeing through the rear sight notch, and the top flat of the front sight is aligned and level with the top flat of the rear sight.

When this is done properly, we have a sight line from our eye through/pass the rear sight to the front sight. The important alignment points are the inside of the rear sight notch relationship/centered sides of the front sight post. And, the alignment of both the front sight post flat top being level with the flat top of the rear sight. If we focus on the front sight post, the rear sight notch will be a little blurry but easy to center the post in the notch as well as alignment of the top flats.



Assume a natural relaxed standing position. Bring our gun up, arms extended, obtain perfect sight alignment on a target the same height as our eye to complete the sight picture. Without moving our shoulders, head, arms, wrist, hands, now bend at the waist forward and we have changed the pitch angle of our sight alignment/sight picture. Most people can continue to bend at the waist until the muzzle points between their feet, similar to touching our toes. That is on way we can change the pitch, or direction of our aim and it works to move the muzzle up or down as well as sideways left or right.

Not withstanding an injury or body deformities, our body is a wonderfully flexible gun mount. Our best marksmanship is not always obtained with the so called perfect body position. I use the most relaxed perfect standing body position to first obtain basic marksmanship skills. Once that is achieved I want to develop skills that provide target sight alignment regardless of the shooting stance obstruction I may have to deal with. One simple example would be, hanging upside down from a swinging rope (as in rappelling) with the left hand as a brake while shooting a handgun with the right at a moving target 20 yards in distance. I'm going to be using the same sight alignment I use while in a stabilized standing position. I will use body muscles to twist and turn my joints to achieve the alignment necessary to achieve POI within my bodies flexibility or change my position to achieve it.

And, yes your questions make sense.

is it possible for the sights to appear even up/down left/right, and not have eye lined up directly behind them? or would it be pretty obvious?
i guess it comes down to... maybe changing the height of target is causing a vertical paralax ?

geometrically , it seems target front sight rear sight eye must all form a straight line for proper alignment. since my head is relatively fixed in height , if target is raised or lowered simply tilting the gun might cause a misalignment, even tho from my POV i still appear to have proper sight picture?

summation : is there an error that would cause improper sight alignment with head/body posture, but still have the sights appearing perfectly lined up from shooters perspective ?

if so,. I could see the turtle forcing a correction - albeit not ideal solution

 

[Eagle Six]

is it possible for the sights to appear even up/down left/right, and not have eye lined up directly behind them? or would it be pretty obvious?
i guess it comes down to... maybe changing the height of target is causing a vertical paralax ?

If we have normal vision no, misalignment should be obvious in normal lighting or anytime we can actually see both sights clearly. I wouldn't use parallax. In simple terms for a complex term, parallax is an angle or form of a triangle. I wouldn't want it confused in comparison to a telescopic sight as in our common rifle scopes which can present a parallax because they only have one physical sight, the crosshair/reticle, and if the image is not on the same plane then there could be a parallax throwing our vision of the target of zero.

With iron sight we have two physical sights which we align, any misalignment can be easily seen and detected with the same device we use to align them, our eye.

geometrically , it seems target front sight rear sight eye must all form a straight line for proper alignment. since my head is relatively fixed in height , if target is raised or lowered simply tilting the gun might cause a misalignment, even tho from my POV i still appear to have proper sight picture?

From what you have said, regardless of the height of your head or the height of your target, you either have proper sight alignment/sight picture or you don't. If we don't, we change to acquire it. If you are standing and shooting at a standing target and establish proper sight alignment with the center of the front post centered on the target left to right and the top of the front post centered on the target up and down you have sight picture. If the target goes to it's knees, you can lock your upper body, bend at the waist until again that proper sight alignment (which will not change if you lock your upper body parts, until you have sight picture. You may have to tweak your sight alignment just itsy bitsy amount (that's a professional instructor term...itsy bitsy, don't you know!!).

Or, you could keep your torso upright, lock your hands, wrist, elbow, and arms and rotate them down pivoting at the shoulder maintaining the sight alignment, and either bend your head down or simply rotate your aiming eye down to establish sight picture.

summation : is there an error that would cause improper sight alignment with head/body posture, but still have the sights appearing perfectly lined up from shooters perspective ?

if so,. I could see the turtle forcing a correction - albeit not ideal solution

There almost always seems to be an exception, but no because as stated before sights are either aligned or not. Now for clarification, the sights, front and rear, are always in alignment if they are zeroed. even when the gun is in the safe, in our holster, anytime anywhere the sights are in alignment. What may not be in alignment is our aiming eye. For that we need to get the gun in hand out in front and twist it around until the sights are in line with our eye and then get that front sight on target while keeping the sight alignment.

Rather than turtling I would rather simply twist my wrist.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I can't imagine anyone using the rear sight in a defensive/combat situation.

 

[johnfkingmatrix]

great insight.

that being said, what's most likely cause of this sight + gun combo causing me to group low, and why does turtling remedy it some?

is it simply the sights appearing more aligned than they are, despite spending two range sessions hyper focusing on them? :/

if that's the case they're pretty much useless to me because i couldnt imagine trying much harder to view them properly.
day two when i did better with turtle was also less sunny so arguably less glare.. but damn lol
ive never encountered something like this

what's most frustrating is both myself and another amateur shooter effortlessly switch to other platform and perform flawlessly with slow controlled shots

my only other theory is that the stiffer trigger pull is causing an imperceivable amount of dipping -, because the ppq is substantially lighter pull.
the HK trigger is also C shaped vs more of a flat profile **shrug**

the fact that were both doing it to similar degree- and then switching guns and having no issues is what has me wondering, but then why is turtling helping, unless the stiffer lockout is mitigating some of the grip/dip issue

 

[Eagle Six]

I would like to steps back. Did you shoot this gun with the factory sights and it shot POA/POI using your customary stance and basic marksmanship fundamentals as you have in the past with your other guns? I think that is what you said previously, please correct me if I'm wrong.

If I am correct, I wouldn't spend time trying different shooting methods or start second guessing my ability before I had ruled out the difference, if any, the new sights have compared to the factory sight, other than of course the little dot thingies (another professional instructor term, "dot thingies"!).

Previously I made a suggestion to compare the sights, but I don't remember if you replied, if I missed your reply please forgive me. I would measure the height of the front sight post from any common point of the frame to the top flat of the post of both front sights. I would measure the height of the rear sight, from any common point on the frame, to the top of the flat of both sights. If they are precisely the same we can explore other causes. However, if they are different, then that may explain the cause of the problem.

If the front post of the new sight is higher than the factory, that would change POI lower. If the height of the rear sight was lower than factory, that would change POI lower. It could also be that both the front and rear are different and the combination of those differences account for the low POI. If it were me I would use a caliper or micrometer and take several measurements as it doesn't take much difference to change the POI as you are getting.