dave@aDave
Gold $$ Contributor
No Round Motor pilots here?
OT - Fear of Flying?
- Thread starter Gun Smith
- Start date
Riesel
Gold $$ Contributor
I know it probably means I have a sick sense of humor but I really enjoyed that read. Worked COM, NAV and ECM on some of those and finished up my short (four years)You guys are just EP amateurs.........
I started my emergency procedure (EP) career a couple months into pilot training with smoke in the cockpit in a T-37. A few months later in the T-38 we lost hydraulic fluid and the gear wouldn't come up. Those were just warms up for what was to come.
My second flight in C-130 copilot school we had an engine fire. I shut it down as directed and then the instructor flew an engine out ILS in the weather down to minimums. As a C-130 copilot I shut down engines 12 times, was hit by lightning, and had so much stuff to go wrong I can't remember it all.
As a C-130 aircraft commander I shut down engines 5 times and was hit by lightning again. However, as an AC I was in charge, and I got my azz chewed for the lightning strike.
On one engine shutdown I was #2 in a three-ship formation at night on the run-in to the DZ for an airdrop--on a guys lead checkride.
The C-130 lead pilot checkride (and lead nav checkride) was a BIG deal. We always stacked the rest of the formation with strong aviators to give the lead pilot the best chance of passing. In order to pass you had to have your formation lined up across the DZ properly, hit the POI with the first item dropped, and be within ONE minute of the TOT, which was established well before you flew the one-hour low level route. Time planning was a challenge and the workload was very high on the run-in.
Now you need permission to join or leave the formation and it takes a bit of doing to get that clearance from ATC. Normally, lead coordinates all that. The LAST thing a lead pilot wants to do during his lead checkride at night is to have more stuff to do on the run-in.
After I directed the engine to be shutdown and we ran the checklist, I chuckled and commented "The lead pilot (don't remember his name) is going to love this!"
The radio call was "Lead, two". An annoyed vice came back: "two, go". I replied: "we just shut down #3 engine." There was dead silence. I then said: "why don't I break out to the north and get my own clearance back to base." His response: "Yeah, do that".
Later on the ground he thanked me for not messing up his checkride.....
Losing one of your four engines usually isn't a big deal. The only time I was nervous about it was on short final to Guam when a throttle stuck. A throttle sticking in an E model C-130 was a big deal. There were lots of cables and pulleys that controlled the propellor and a manipulating a stuck throttle could cause a prop to go into reverse in the air--which at low altitude was certain death.
My second tour was as a T-38 Instructor and I got to fly upside down, pull Gs, and go supersonic--which is why I joined the Air Force in the first place. My biggest EP in that plane was a compressor stall. It was a student formation sortie. We had finished the formation part, my student just completed his landing, and it was my turn for a landing.
As I was turning 90 to Initial in the pattern the right engine compressor stalled. This meant it was still running but had quit producing thrust. I pulled the throttle to idle and the stall cleared, but now the engine was unavailable.
Unlike the C-130 with it's four very powerful engines, the T-38 only has two engines and when you lose one it goes from being a hot rod sports car to an underpowered Yugo. So you have to be especially careful to keep your speed up.
The T-38 has a tiny wing and it needs a lot speed to fly. We'd fly around the pattern at 300 indicated just to somewhat fit in with everyone else, but it wasn't really happy below 350 KIAS. It liked 400-500 KIAS best. Configured with gear and flaps, the minimum speed on final was 155 KIAS and it wasn't so responsive at that speed. Having only half of your normal thrust meant if you got behind the power curve (this is the real meaning of that phrase), you might not recover.
Oh yeah. It was at the end of the sortie so I didn't have a lot of fuel left. I told the controller I was going to carry through initial and enter the straight-in ground track from that position--not really a standard thing to do but it made the most sense in this situation. He approved that and made sure the pattern was clear for me.
I landed uneventfully using single engine procedures. The scheduler was happy because the student sortie was completed and the controller was happy because I got my EP resolved quickly and got out of his pattern. The SQ/CC found out about and told me good job. A year later they started making a big deal when someone handled an EP well, but that was the overriding theme of my USAF career........never getting as much credit as others for doing the same thing.
The last airplane I flew, the T-1, was a business jet (Beech 400) that the USAF converted to a trainer. I had the scariest EP of all in that plane--dual runaway trim. It doesn't sound like much but trust me, when you cannot control the airplane it is a big deal indeed. We figured it out and what caused it was a broken spring in the trim switch on the left seat yoke. Whenever the trim was moved it would go full in that direction, and the control forces were extremely heavy.
After my last flight in the USAF Inquir flying for 15 years. In the summer of 2019 I decided to start flying again. A friend from work took me up in his old M20C Mooney.
I was very pleased to find that I still had my SA and airmanship. I distracted him with all my questions and he missed changing fuel tanks. The engine quit in the pattern. It was a quick fix and he was embarrassed, but he wasn't an instructor and I asked him questions like he was. It was my fault. However, something HAD to happen on my return to aviation.
I have since learned that general aviaton piston engines are extremely reliable as long as they are reasonably maintained and you don't run them out of gas or oil.
Last year I took the military competency test the FAA has for former military pilots, and I got my CFII Multi. I added a single engine rating to that and also passed a 135 Checkride.
Nowadays I get to fly a nice Navajo on occasion. Given my history I like that it has two engines. My biggest worries in that airplane are using the Garmin 650, keeping the EGT and CHTs in line, and getting the engines started when they are hot. Though aviation has taken a back seat this year since we moved, I will take a 135 Check in that plane and start flying it a little more next year.
I would be very happy if I didn't have any more EPs. I think I have checked that box enough times........
career working F-111's. Now that was a real piece of work and the stories on it can last for hours.
I' ve got a project going, a '49 Luscombe 8a with a Rotec 9 cylinder radial. I have run it and as soon as my 180 goes to paint, I am putting the wings on it.
Worked on real round motors. R2800’s on DC-6’s up at Willow Run airport in Yipsalanti, Michigan. Non-sked cargo carrier n just out of A&P school. Changing cylinders outside when it’s 5 below was a treat. You stood on a wooden pallet hoisted by a forklift, a Herman Nelson was blowing as much heat at u as it could muster. Would not trade that experience for anything.
I'm envious of those of you who fly.
I have only flown as a passenger in commercial. I can't even remember the number of seat mates have been terrified of flying. Some sweat, some white-knuckle the arm rest, some it's restless leg, some it's the breathing. One was in tears.
To all, I have said the same things:
I have only flown as a passenger in commercial. I can't even remember the number of seat mates have been terrified of flying. Some sweat, some white-knuckle the arm rest, some it's restless leg, some it's the breathing. One was in tears.
To all, I have said the same things:
- You're in God's hands. Everything that happens here is beyond your control.
- This is a choice, get to your destination or not. Up until they close the doors, you can leave (one did).
- If we do crash and die, our families will be well compensated. ( a few have laughed at this ).
Now that was the plane you wanted to be in if we ever had a nuclear war. It held something like 33,000 lbs of fuel and could out run about anything. Buddies told me stories about having F-15s try to engage and the F-111s just accelerating away.
rkittine
Gold $$ Contributor
My first IP was a WWII P-40 Pilot. Although I had already been a licensed pilot prior to that, he taught me a lot.
Took my first flight at 11, my first real lesson at 13 and have been flying ever since. Now after 61 years of flying, I am still teaching.
Have enjoyed flying a number of Round Motor Aircraft, Cessna 195, DC-3, Stagger Wing Beech and Stearman to name a few.
Took my first flight at 11, my first real lesson at 13 and have been flying ever since. Now after 61 years of flying, I am still teaching.
Have enjoyed flying a number of Round Motor Aircraft, Cessna 195, DC-3, Stagger Wing Beech and Stearman to name a few.
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I was an Air Traffic Controller in the USAF in the mid to late 1970's. We were able to catch a lot of "orientation flights". The scariest one was out of Galena, AK with Alaska Airlines in a 737. Alaska Airlines was in the midst of a strike and both of these pilots were new to the company. The pilot was 60+ and hadn't flown but about 1000 hours of passenger commercial, most of his time was as a civilian contractor ferrying cargo aircfart for the military. The other had over 100K hrs of commercial multi but it was almost all on the Goodyear blimp. I had to keep reminding them to change frequencies when ATC handed them off from one controller to another. Then the co-pilot needed a STOL on a short runway and he nearly sent all three of us through the windscreen when he overapplied the brakes as the pilot applied reverse thrust. I can't even imagine what the passengers felt, though most Alaska fliers are used to sketchy stunts in airplanes. That one year tour in Alaska was my only duty station where there were fatalities in aircraft that at one point had been under our control, though none under our control at the time of the incidents.
Later in life as I was a professional passenger flying every third day for a couple of years for my job I would encounter people afraid of flying, especially when turbulence was encountered in a 12 or fewer passenger plane. I always told them that if they went to an amusement park they'd have to pay more money and stand in lines for hours to get an exciting ride like they were having. This was before the crazy lines and waiting in lines after 9/11 of course. Many but not all relaxed a bit after that, some even thanked me for the shift in perspective.
Later in life as I was a professional passenger flying every third day for a couple of years for my job I would encounter people afraid of flying, especially when turbulence was encountered in a 12 or fewer passenger plane. I always told them that if they went to an amusement park they'd have to pay more money and stand in lines for hours to get an exciting ride like they were having. This was before the crazy lines and waiting in lines after 9/11 of course. Many but not all relaxed a bit after that, some even thanked me for the shift in perspective.
Not to ding on pilots, but as a mechanic, i feel it's my duty. 
My first call as a line mechanic for the airline. No, i'm not gonna say which one!
Crew got sick in the cockpit. Landed & deboarded. Passengers never knew.
Call comes in for maintenance.
The oncoming crew was cleaning the cockpit & wanted someone from maintenance to make sure they "didn't hit something they were'nt supposed to".
Wait a minute! I thought you were the pilots!
Yup!
My first call as a line mechanic for the airline. No, i'm not gonna say which one!
Crew got sick in the cockpit. Landed & deboarded. Passengers never knew.
Call comes in for maintenance.
The oncoming crew was cleaning the cockpit & wanted someone from maintenance to make sure they "didn't hit something they were'nt supposed to".
Wait a minute! I thought you were the pilots!
Yup!
Dave,
My friend (a retired airline pilot) has a 1937 Waco YKS. That is a cabin , bi-plane with a seven cylinder Jacobs radial engine. Google it as it is a really cool airplane. We fly it to events in the mid-West. It is really a different experience to sit behind a round engine. Cruise RPM is almost low enough to count the cylinders firing. It has roll down windows like a car and mechanical brakes (no hydraulics).
I was fortunate enough to get a ride in a Waco UPF7 which is an open cockpit bi-plane. Sat in the front cockpit and was amazed at how much engine heat floods that area, how restricted your vision is (wings, wires, and engine in your way) and how little wind actually was in the cockpit. You could read a newspaper in that thing.
Quite a thrill.
Bob
Geeze, you were high-risk to fly withYou guys are just EP amateurs.........
I started my emergency procedure (EP) career a couple months into pilot training with smoke in the cockpit in a T-37. A few months later in the T-38 we lost hydraulic fluid and the gear wouldn't come up. Those were just warms up for what was to come.
My second flight in C-130 copilot school we had an engine fire. I shut it down as directed and then the instructor flew an engine out ILS in the weather down to minimums. As a C-130 copilot I shut down engines 12 times, was hit by lightning, and had so much stuff to go wrong I can't remember it all.
As a C-130 aircraft commander I shut down engines 5 times and was hit by lightning again. However, as an AC I was in charge, and I got my azz chewed for the lightning strike.
On one engine shutdown I was #2 in a three-ship formation at night on the run-in to the DZ for an airdrop--on a guys lead checkride.
The C-130 lead pilot checkride (and lead nav checkride) was a BIG deal. We always stacked the rest of the formation with strong aviators to give the lead pilot the best chance of passing. In order to pass you had to have your formation lined up across the DZ properly, hit the POI with the first item dropped, and be within ONE minute of the TOT, which was established well before you flew the one-hour low level route. Time planning was a challenge and the workload was very high on the run-in.
Now you need permission to join or leave the formation and it takes a bit of doing to get that clearance from ATC. Normally, lead coordinates all that. The LAST thing a lead pilot wants to do during his lead checkride at night is to have more stuff to do on the run-in.
After I directed the engine to be shutdown and we ran the checklist, I chuckled and commented "The lead pilot (don't remember his name) is going to love this!"
The radio call was "Lead, two". An annoyed vice came back: "two, go". I replied: "we just shut down #3 engine." There was dead silence. I then said: "why don't I break out to the north and get my own clearance back to base." His response: "Yeah, do that".
Later on the ground he thanked me for not messing up his checkride.....
Losing one of your four engines usually isn't a big deal. The only time I was nervous about it was on short final to Guam when a throttle stuck. A throttle sticking in an E model C-130 was a big deal. There were lots of cables and pulleys that controlled the propellor and a manipulating a stuck throttle could cause a prop to go into reverse in the air--which at low altitude was certain death.
My second tour was as a T-38 Instructor and I got to fly upside down, pull Gs, and go supersonic--which is why I joined the Air Force in the first place. My biggest EP in that plane was a compressor stall. It was a student formation sortie. We had finished the formation part, my student just completed his landing, and it was my turn for a landing.
As I was turning 90 to Initial in the pattern the right engine compressor stalled. This meant it was still running but had quit producing thrust. I pulled the throttle to idle and the stall cleared, but now the engine was unavailable.
Unlike the C-130 with it's four very powerful engines, the T-38 only has two engines and when you lose one it goes from being a hot rod sports car to an underpowered Yugo. So you have to be especially careful to keep your speed up.
The T-38 has a tiny wing and it needs a lot speed to fly. We'd fly around the pattern at 300 indicated just to somewhat fit in with everyone else, but it wasn't really happy below 350 KIAS. It liked 400-500 KIAS best. Configured with gear and flaps, the minimum speed on final was 155 KIAS and it wasn't so responsive at that speed. Having only half of your normal thrust meant if you got behind the power curve (this is the real meaning of that phrase), you might not recover.
Oh yeah. It was at the end of the sortie so I didn't have a lot of fuel left. I told the controller I was going to carry through initial and enter the straight-in ground track from that position--not really a standard thing to do but it made the most sense in this situation. He approved that and made sure the pattern was clear for me.
I landed uneventfully using single engine procedures. The scheduler was happy because the student sortie was completed and the controller was happy because I got my EP resolved quickly and got out of his pattern. The SQ/CC found out about and told me good job. A year later they started making a big deal when someone handled an EP well, but that was the overriding theme of my USAF career........never getting as much credit as others for doing the same thing.
The last airplane I flew, the T-1, was a business jet (Beech 400) that the USAF converted to a trainer. I had the scariest EP of all in that plane--dual runaway trim. It doesn't sound like much but trust me, when you cannot control the airplane it is a big deal indeed. We figured it out and what caused it was a broken spring in the trim switch on the left seat yoke. Whenever the trim was moved it would go full in that direction, and the control forces were extremely heavy.
After my last flight in the USAF Inquir flying for 15 years. In the summer of 2019 I decided to start flying again. A friend from work took me up in his old M20C Mooney.
I was very pleased to find that I still had my SA and airmanship. I distracted him with all my questions and he missed changing fuel tanks. The engine quit in the pattern. It was a quick fix and he was embarrassed, but he wasn't an instructor and I asked him questions like he was. It was my fault. However, something HAD to happen on my return to aviation.
I have since learned that general aviaton piston engines are extremely reliable as long as they are reasonably maintained and you don't run them out of gas or oil.
Last year I took the military competency test the FAA has for former military pilots, and I got my CFII Multi. I added a single engine rating to that and also passed a 135 Checkride.
Nowadays I get to fly a nice Navajo on occasion. Given my history I like that it has two engines. My biggest worries in that airplane are using the Garmin 650, keeping the EGT and CHTs in line, and getting the engines started when they are hot. Though aviation has taken a back seat this year since we moved, I will take a 135 Check in that plane and start flying it a little more next year.
I would be very happy if I didn't have any more EPs. I think I have checked that box enough times........
I made it thru UPT unscathed, except almost getting hit re-entering the pattern at the T-37 aux field by another one doing the same thing. Seeing rivets when not flying formation is too damn close!
Oh, and we we entered the T-37 aux field on the Vance AFB freq - we'd completed the straight-in before we figured it out.
As a T-38 FAIP for over 5 years - never lost a motor. Just lost left hydraulics, so alternate gear extend and land.
Shut down a motor a few times in the B-52. Yep, the dreaded 7-engine approach and landing. During my initial qual, we got a fire light when climbing out of low level. Did the boldface to shut it down, and did the cleanup. For quite a while, the Radar and Nav thought we were just talking about it for training. Nope, it was real, so I guess we were calm and cool about it.
Shut down an engine for a generator issue once, and still entered and flew a 1 hour low-level. Then went home, ran checklists for an hour, declared an Emergency and landed.
During a combat mission, we lost half the hydraulics controlling the rudder/elevator system. Didn't declare an EP and made it back to Diego just fine.
During my last tour, flying the T-38 again, I had a student (ok, trainee, because he was a Naval Aviator on the way to Navy Test Pilot School) damn near kill me doing the aerobrake. He landed hot (very common), then snaped the stick to the rear stop for the aerobrake -- just like the simulator instructor taught him to do. . . Airborne, climbing, rapidly going below landing speed. Took the jet, lit the blowers to cushion the fall, eased off the stick back pressure, and let the jet settle back to the runway for a fairly firm touchdown. In the chocks, the crew chief said he saw it and wondered how it was going to turn out. HUD tape showed we got to about 40 feet off the ground when he snapped the stick back. Two months before retiring, and came close to not making it home that day.
snert
Silver $$ Contributor
I was fortunate enough to "backseat" at the Rhinebeck Aerodrome NY in the 85-86. My first baseman was a pilot there. ( later flew in Hollywood WW1 flick I can't recall name of) Great guy who is still restoring aircraft as far as I know. He let me ride in the show. I got to drop "bombs" on the runway. As I recall, we had 4. They were old Valvoline oil cans taped together with no ends to make a tube. On the back were metal fins, on the front was a pipe fitting and a nail. In the pipe fitting was a 12 ga base and primer, powder? A nail was positioned to set it off when it hit the ground, spewing dust out like a bomb. In the tube was crushed charcoal briquets with a paper stuffing in the back to keep it in. My job was to hold one over the side when he stuck his hand out, drop it when he waved. And I was to be careful to not tangle them up in the exposed cables in the cockpit, or in the stick and pedals. It was awesome! We tried to hit the VW that was covered in plywood to resemble a tank that was being driven around on the runway as Trudy Truelove was threatened by the Black Baron and his henchmen. I'm pretty sure our stead was a 1929 Tiger Moth, but may have been another biplane type which I cannot recall. On other occasions we tossed out toilet paper rolls then scissored back and forth cutting the trailer with the wings...till we were usually way too low...great fun.
Closest I ever got to "flying" as in pilot, was in Elmira NY where Schweizer had a school. On Saturday for $35 you could go on a flight, get a lesson and "land". I did ok once my instructor explained that turning in a sailplane involved keeping the wings flat. Who knew? All I had ever experienced was Rhinebeck and most all we did was sideways, looking down, so everyone could see us. Landing? Well, lets just say I let go when he said "Give me the stick." Otherwise there would have been a heck of a hole in the building.
Closest I ever got to "flying" as in pilot, was in Elmira NY where Schweizer had a school. On Saturday for $35 you could go on a flight, get a lesson and "land". I did ok once my instructor explained that turning in a sailplane involved keeping the wings flat. Who knew? All I had ever experienced was Rhinebeck and most all we did was sideways, looking down, so everyone could see us. Landing? Well, lets just say I let go when he said "Give me the stick." Otherwise there would have been a heck of a hole in the building.
Geeze, you were high-risk to fly with
I made it thru UPT unscathed, except almost getting hit re-entering the pattern at the T-37 aux field by another one doing the same thing. Seeing rivets when not flying formation is too damn close!
Oh, and we we entered the T-37 aux field on the Vance AFB freq - we'd completed the straight-in before we figured it out.
As a T-38 FAIP for over 5 years - never lost a motor. Just lost left hydraulics, so alternate gear extend and land.
Shut down a motor a few times in the B-52. Yep, the dreaded 7-engine approach and landing. During my initial qual, we got a fire light when climbing out of low level. Did the boldface to shut it down, and did the cleanup. For quite a while, the Radar and Nav thought we were just talking about it for training. Nope, it was real, so I guess we were calm and cool about it.
Shut down an engine for a generator issue once, and still entered and flew a 1 hour low-level. Then went home, ran checklists for an hour, declared an Emergency and landed.
During a combat mission, we lost half the hydraulics controlling the rudder/elevator system. Didn't declare an EP and made it back to Diego just fine.
During my last tour, flying the T-38 again, I had a student (ok, trainee, because he was a Naval Aviator on the way to Navy Test Pilot School) damn near kill me doing the aerobrake. He landed hot (very common), then snaped the stick to the rear stop for the aerobrake -- just like the simulator instructor taught him to do. . . Airborne, climbing, rapidly going below landing speed. Took the jet, lit the blowers to cushion the fall, eased off the stick back pressure, and let the jet settle back to the runway for a fairly firm touchdown. In the chocks, the crew chief said he saw it and wondered how it was going to turn out. HUD tape showed we got to about 40 feet off the ground when he snapped the stick back. Two months before retiring, and came close to not making it home that day.
The entire time I was a T-38 IP I too was constantly saving lives. Guys just don't have a clue about flying a tiny wing plane when they first start. They try the old yank back the stick to stop a sink rate like they would in a 182. That never works in the T-38. Every go around from a messed up student landing was power and stick forward.
I especially hated wing landings with fighter bound students. Back in the day everyone went through the T-38. The heavy bound students only had to TRY a wing landing. That meant as soon as we were configured and started down the glide path on final, It was my jet and they got to watch.
However, fighter students had to be able to safely land the damn thing while on the wing. That meant I had to let them fly the whole thing. I needed to take the jet by 1/4 mile final to be able to fix it and land. That last 1/4 mile really sucked. Contrary to popular belief, fighter students weren't really much better that heavy students.
I understand that they don't do wing landings anyone in pilot training for any students.....
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I was an IP for both T-38 only, and the split track because the T-1 came to Vance when I was there.
I've sat thru many hairy wing landings. But somehow we get accustomed to the madness.
Of course as a PIT IP, we had FAIPs and young fighter or bomber pilots in the back seat, trying to do a lead or wing landing. Those were always exciting too.
The Vance wing landing mishap ended them a few years ago. Fighters have gotten away from them too.
But when I went thru PIT in '91, we did wing touch and goes at Kelly. 69% of the time had a lead change on those. They were sporty, but fun. Don't cross centerline, don't trade paint. Sort it out on the go. With FAIPs in the back seats, what could go wrong?
I was an IP for both T-38 only, and the split track because the T-1 came to Vance when I was there.
I've sat thru many hairy wing landings. But somehow we get accustomed to the madness.
Of course as a PIT IP, we had FAIPs and young fighter or bomber pilots in the back seat, trying to do a lead or wing landing. Those were always exciting too.
The Vance wing landing mishap ended them a few years ago. Fighters have gotten away from them too.
But when I went thru PIT in '91, we did wing touch and goes at Kelly. 69% of the time had a lead change on those. They were sporty, but fun. Don't cross centerline, don't trade paint. Sort it out on the go. With FAIPs in the back seats, what could go wrong?
I would frustrate the FAIPs when they would say that you couldn't land the T-38 "mechanically". Being a C-130 guy who had to be extremely proficient at landing precisely, landing the T-38 was a simple and I had a step-by-step process for newer students. This would get them somewhere between safe and good. I still remember it.
Aim in the middle of the overrun until the overrun fills the windscreen, then shift aimpoint to the threshold and crack the power. Then:
1. If on speed and altitude, hesitate a sec then slowly pull the power back and pull back on the stick gently until touchdown.
2. If a little fast but on altitude, immediately pull the power all the way back when shifting the aimpoint, wait a sec, then pull back on the stick until touchdown
3. If a little low or slow, then carry the power until crossing the threshold, then as in step 1
4. If high and fast or too low and slow then go around
I taught several students how to be safe quickly using that approach. As they got better they could blend it all in until it was a less mechanical and more fluid process.
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