Opinions on my Groups and loads

[Thumb]

First off I want to let you all know that I'm not a bench rest or competitive shooter, just trying to find and get the best load for the best group at 600 yards or more. So with that said, I've been working up some loads and testing them out at 100 yards just to find what will potentially give me good results and this is what I came up with so far. BTW, I am shooting AR15 20" 1:7 twist .223

Best loads were a Sierra 80gr Matchking sitting on top of 23.0gr N140 with oal's of 2.520", 2.515", and 2.510", Remington 7 1/2 BR primers and L.C. cases trimmed to 1.750" shot at 100 yards.

Here is what I got for each load with 6 rounds each:

2.520" = 2537fps/2552fps spread=15fps avg= 2542
2.515" = 2527fps//2551fps spread= 24fps avg= 2537
2.510" = 2510fps/2546fps spread= 36fps avg= 2527

Discounting my shooting ability(most likely) or just plain flyers, the main group of shots per load were all less than .4". My question is which group do you think is best and for what reason if any? Here are the pics:


2.520" load


2.515" load


2.510" load

 

[South Pender]

I think I would have some hesitation in using the "main group of shots" from a 5-shot group as a reliable index of group size. Instead, I'd follow the NRA protocol of shooting 5 consecutive 5-shot groups at each OAL and take the average of the 5 for each OAL. The "consecutive" part of the protocol is important in that it rules out cherry-picking and writing off bad groups as containing "flyers." (Of course, legitimate called flyers are a different story.)

 

[Thumb]

I understand what you are saying and agree. Before this shoot though I did do a 10-shot group with the same loads and these were just a follow up to see if they were actually what I got before. Funny thing is that every group I shoot it seems I always get a couple 'so-called' flyers being it me or the bullet. I do know that I need to get a better trigger, right now the one I have is about a 6lb pull which is not what I really like. I'm use to more of a 1lb pull on my rifles, 2lbs at the most. Like I said before, I'm not into the competition thing, just trying to get a good load established for this rifle so my guess as if they are flyers are not is just that, a guess.

 

[Homerange]

I do know that I need to get a better trigger, right now the one I have is about a 6lb pull which is not what I really like. I'm use to more of a 1lb pull on my rifles, 2lbs at the most. Like I said before, I'm not into the competition thing, just trying to get a good load established for this rifle so my guess as if they are flyers are not is just that, a guess.

My hunch is the trigger is having a fair influence on groups and because of that I'd be looking hard at groups with the least vertical.

 

[Zero333]

For AR rifles I would vary the COAL in 0.020" increments.

Was the brass already fired in this rifles chamber and were the shoulders bumped a few thou when sizing ?
I ask because when setting up a die to overcam for Full Length sizing, it will most likely size at least a few thousands under go-gauge length. Giving you at least 0.005" shoulder bump and most likely more than 0.007" shoulder bump, which in turn gives you generous working headspace (but not unsafe).
Therefore varying COAL by only 0.005" when your working headspace is 0.007"+ is not ideal.

food for thought

I pick 2.510"

 

[Thumb]

Zero333, I started out with a COAL of 2.550" and worked my way down to 2.500" so far. I am using the Lee full size die for sizing and have it set up for overcam if that tells you anything and yes, the brass has been once fired in this rifle. I'm looking at a Jard 1.5lb trigger hoping that maybe that will help a bit also.

 

[johnfred1965]

what might look good at 100 might fall apart at 600. Even though the load with the lowest extreme spread shows some vertical at 100, I would still try that one out at a longer distance and see if it doesn't hold together better than the others. Just my 2 cents

here's .02 more: be careful with that light trigger on an AR, that is closer to a bench gun weight than a shooter. Velocity makes a great 3# drop in for under $150.

 

[T-shooter]

First off I want to let you all know that I'm not a bench rest or competitive shooter, just trying to find and get the best load for the best group at 600 yards or more. So with that said, I've been working up some loads and testing them out at 100 yards just to find what will potentially give me good results and this is what I came up with so far. BTW, I am shooting AR15 20" 1:7 twist .223

Best loads were a Sierra 80gr Matchking sitting on top of 23.0gr N140 with oal's of 2.520", 2.515", and 2.510", Remington 7 1/2 BR primers and L.C. cases trimmed to 1.750" shot at 100 yards.

Here is what I got for each load with 6 rounds each:

2.520" = 2537fps/2552fps spread=15fps avg= 2542
2.515" = 2527fps//2551fps spread= 24fps avg= 2537
2.510" = 2510fps/2546fps spread= 36fps avg= 2527

Discounting my shooting ability(most likely) or just plain flyers, the main group of shots per load were all less than .4". My question is which group do you think is best and for what reason if any? Here are the pics:


2.520" load


2.515" load


2.510" load

Watch your barrel temperature when firing groups. And try to shoot a 10 round group to confirm a loading. 5 is ok to get in the ballpark. For example, here is a 6 shot group of .308 at 215 yards (I was ammo testing) that will leave you scratching your head. I don't know in what sequence they hit.

 

[johnfred1965]

Watch your barrel temperature when firing groups. And try to shoot a 10 round group to confirm a loading. 5 is ok to get in the ballpark. For example, here is a 6 shot group of .308 at 215 yards (I was ammo testing) that will leave you scratching your head. I don't know in what sequence they hit.

Round Robin?

 

[Thumb]

what might look good at 100 might fall apart at 600. Even though the load with the lowest extreme spread shows some vertical at 100, I would still try that one out at a longer distance and see if it doesn't hold together better than the others. Just my 2 cents

here's .02 more: be careful with that light trigger on an AR, that is closer to a bench gun weight than a shooter. Velocity makes a great 3# drop in for under $150.

Yes, it could be worthless at 600 but I'll find that out when I get to the 600yd range. I do have a Velocity trigger that I was going to put in another AR but I could try it out and see if it helps which I think that it will. Only thing I don't like about that trigger is they say it's a one stage trigger but it feels like a two stage, pull the trigger and it stops then keep pulling and it fires. I don't like that kind of trigger really. I can still try it though since it's a drop in.

 

[Thumb]

Watch your barrel temperature when firing groups. And try to shoot a 10 round group to confirm a loading. 5 is ok to get in the ballpark. For example, here is a 6 shot group of .308 at 215 yards (I was ammo testing) that will leave you scratching your head. I don't know in what sequence they hit.

How long do you wait between shots or do you actually measure the temp? My shots are usually at least 2-3 minutes apart per group and at least 5 minutes from group to group.

 

[T-shooter]

How long do you wait between shots or do you actually measure the temp? My shots are usually at least 2-3 minutes apart per group and at least 5 minutes from group to group.

That's plenty Usually I do about 60 seconds except in real hot weather. On my bolt action, I test the temp by being able to hold the barrel without it being too uncomfortable. Sometimes I use a cooler, a high volume low pressure air pump run off a battery box and run a hose into the chamber and let it blow out the barrel. I tried measuring and it works ok if you have a laser infrared thermometer.

 

[johnfred1965]

Yes, it could be worthless at 600 but I'll find that out when I get to the 600yd range. I do have a Velocity trigger that I was going to put in another AR but I could try it out and see if it helps which I think that it will. Only thing I don't like about that trigger is they say it's a one stage trigger but it feels like a two stage, pull the trigger and it stops then keep pulling and it fires. I don't like that kind of trigger really. I can still try it though since it's a drop in.

That has not been my experience with mine at all. You might want to give them a call and see what they say. Mine, you just lay your finger on it and up the pressure and BANG. I've got a two stage Rock River, and the velocity doesn't move as much as the second stage of the RR.

 

[Thumb]

For AR rifles I would vary the COAL in 0.020" increments.

Was the brass already fired in this rifles chamber and were the shoulders bumped a few thou when sizing ?
I ask because when setting up a die to overcam for Full Length sizing, it will most likely size at least a few thousands under go-gauge length. Giving you at least 0.005" shoulder bump and most likely more than 0.007" shoulder bump, which in turn gives you generous working headspace (but not unsafe).
Therefore varying COAL by only 0.005" when your working headspace is 0.007"+ is not ideal.

food for thought

I pick 2.510"

So should I adjust my die so that when I measure my cases with a gauge that they are just under the max headspace?

 

[Zero333]

So should I adjust my die so that when I measure my cases with a gauge that they are just under the max headspace?

For my gas guns I bump the shoulders 0.003" to 0.004"... Pretty much to go-gauge length is best.

 

[Thumb]

That has not been my experience with mine at all. You might want to give them a call and see what they say. Mine, you just lay your finger on it and up the pressure and BANG. I've got a two stage Rock River, and the velocity doesn't move as much as the second stage of the RR.

I have to apolgize, I installed the Velocity trigger last night and went to the range today and it worked pretty good, not as light as I'm use to but better than the stick trigger that was in it for sure.

 

[Thumb]

For my gas guns I bump the shoulders 0.003" to 0.004"... Pretty much to go-gauge length is best.

I went through 100 cases that I have prepped and all but 2 were between the min and max on my gauge so I think I'm good, right?

 

[johnfred1965]

I have to apolgize, I installed the Velocity trigger last night and went to the range today and it worked pretty good, not as light as I'm use to but better than the stick trigger that was in it for sure.

No apology necessary, I just though you might have gotten a lemon. It has been known to happen. So how did the groups look with a better trigger?

 

[Knotwild]

What is a good tool for checking bump in the .223? I have always just run the die down to the shell holder and let it rip. It turns in groups less than an inch with an economy stainless barrel. Chambers easy.

 

[spife7980]

What is a good tool for checking bump in the .223? I have always just run the die down to the shell holder and let it rip. It turns in groups less than an inch with an economy stainless barrel. Chambers easy.

http://www.brownells.com/reloading/...ck-n-load-headspace-gauge-tool-prod35168.aspx

I prefer them on a digital caliper though so I can easily zero it with the gauge. There are additional inserts that allow you to measure your case base to bullet ogive as well.
http://www.brownells.com/reloading/measuring-tools/bullet-comparators/lnl-comparator-body-w-14-inserts-prod36535.aspx?avs|Manufacturer_1=HORNADY

These arent actual measurements mind you. But they will be accurate relative to your own equipment. Your neighbors wont give the same numbers, but your own personal numbers should be repeatable with your tools. So its a relative measurement vs absolute but thats all one really needs.