On HBR Scopes
- Thread starter Pete Wass
- Start date
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
Pete, you already know the problem. Many HBR rifles were built around the 14/15 ounce weight of the old Leupold, Weaver, and Burris 6x HBR Scopes. All of these had very fine reticles designed for the HBR targets.
Any available scope, either variable or fixed, will probably top 20 ounces, with a reticle that is suited for hunting, not extreme accuracy. Plus, those nice target knobs are usually absent.
3 years ago, at the Nationals in Raton, an agenda item was voted on to increase the rifle weight limit by 6 ounces.
It was voted down.
So the option now is to see if you can get a HBR stock in the 21 ounces range, and use something like a Remington Varmint Barrel Profile to allow for the xtra weight of the scope.
Any available scope, either variable or fixed, will probably top 20 ounces, with a reticle that is suited for hunting, not extreme accuracy. Plus, those nice target knobs are usually absent.
3 years ago, at the Nationals in Raton, an agenda item was voted on to increase the rifle weight limit by 6 ounces.
It was voted down.
So the option now is to see if you can get a HBR stock in the 21 ounces range, and use something like a Remington Varmint Barrel Profile to allow for the xtra weight of the scope.
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Pete Wass
Gold $$ Contributor
Thanks Jackie. I just keep hoping something will come along and I don't want to miss out on it. I have some good scopes just now but the end is in sight, no pun intended. If only one of the makers of reliable scopes could be convinced make a small run of 1 lb scopes!
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AlNyhus
Silver $$ Contributor
It's unfortunate that the motion to raise the weight from 10 lbs to 10.5 lbs wasn't passed. The extra 8 oz. makes some of the newer 30MM scopes viable but that still leaves finding a useable reticle and the adjustments...most newer scopes are 1/4" adjustments.
The Sightron S-Tac 3-16 with the MOA reticle is one possibilty. At 3X the center dot is 1.25" and at 16X, it's .25".
So, I put one on my HBR gun to try it out. On a Score target and set at 6X, I had no problem at all shooting that size dot. The target style adjustments are 1/4" and while 1/8" would be preferable, holding off is just part of HBR shooting that we're all used to. The Weaver steel tube T6's are 1/4" and they're arguably the winningest HBR scope through the years.
Good shootin'
-Al
The Sightron S-Tac 3-16 with the MOA reticle is one possibilty. At 3X the center dot is 1.25" and at 16X, it's .25".
So, I put one on my HBR gun to try it out. On a Score target and set at 6X, I had no problem at all shooting that size dot. The target style adjustments are 1/4" and while 1/8" would be preferable, holding off is just part of HBR shooting that we're all used to. The Weaver steel tube T6's are 1/4" and they're arguably the winningest HBR scope through the years.
Good shootin'
-AlPete Wass
Gold $$ Contributor
That was my next question, Are they at all usable? One of March's shorties is 1/10MOA adj and the weight could be usable I think. In a search last year found one of theirs that was about a pound, 1/8' adj and BR reticles available but DISCONTINUED written across the center of the ad.It's unfortunate that the motion to raise the weight from 10 lbs to 10.5 lbs wasn't passed. The extra 8 oz. makes some of the newer 30MM scopes viable but that still leaves finding a useable reticle and the adjustments...most newer scopes are 1/4" adjustments.
The Sightron S-Tac 3-16 with the MOA reticle is one possibilty. At 3X the center dot is 1.25" and at 16X, it's .25".
So, I put one on my HBR gun to try it out. On a Score target and set at 6X, I had no problem at all shooting that size dot. The target style adjustments are 1/4" and while 1/8" would be preferable, holding off is just part of HBR shooting that we're all used to. The Weaver steel tube T6's are 1/4" and they're arguably the winningest HBR scope through the years.
Good shootin'
Eventually all the existing 6X scopes will become unusable and something will have to give. We are close I think. I see new shooters coming along over here in the East so HBR isn't dead but we need some help here or it will be. a 10.5 RBR rifle won't shoot any better than a 10 LB HBR rifle, just look at the records to prove that. Actually, what could be hurt by starting new records? Might bring more shooters.
Pete
JoeDuke
Gold $$ Contributor
I agree that sooner or later we will have to do something. But what we do not want to happen is just let the class morph into a 10 or 10.5 lb gun any scope. If that happens we will be right where the group guns are. Everyone will just shoot the same gun in both classes.
rjtfroggy
Gold $$ Contributor
A couple of years ago it was rumored that Nightforce was going to make a 6x 1/8th click, but nothing came of it.
Pete Wass
Gold $$ Contributor
I think they don't see enough sales to gear up for it. I think there are a lot of people who have HBR rifles who never compete, as there are many with other BR rifles who never compete. There is a market.
AlNyhus
Silver $$ Contributor
There's a fair number of fixed 6X target scopes out there if you beat the bushes. The issue with them is service, Cheryl at Ackerman's can tune up the steel tube T6's and do reticle changes on some other brands.
Even if Burris gives you a RGM number to send one in to them, you're probably going to get a replacement 3-9 Fullfield instead.
Even if Burris gives you a RGM number to send one in to them, you're probably going to get a replacement 3-9 Fullfield instead.
AlNyhus
Silver $$ Contributor
It's been my opinion that scope companies could offer an ala' carte service for competition scopes. Choose the power, choose the reticle, choose the adjustments, choose side focus or A.O. parallax adjustment and then build it. US Optics used to do something similar in their heyday.
The problem is the shooters would have to swallow hard and pony up the coin for a true custom scope. You'd be surprised how many shooters are notorious cheap azzes......
What Al didn't 'spell out': @ 6X, the (S-Tac3-16) reticle would subtend 0.625". Especially for 'old' eyes, that would probably be quite manageable. Albeit with larger reticle and click values, numerous vari-X scope options are available.
Two years ago, upon arriving home from the NBRSA Score nationals, I looked into the potential vari-X scope options, I had to 'eat crow' - there were/are far more than I have kept up with. I was disappointed that the [vast] majority voted against accommodating increasing the weight to 10.5 Lb.
In the past, for Hunter Class, I have used up to 1.0 MOA Dot reticle successfully, including garnering my sole 100 Yd. NBRSA National Championship via a 250-16X score.
The large dot is actually a decent hold-off indicator: 'measuring' (visualizing) seems intuitive: center the dot, use the hold-off edge to gauge & reduced gap between that edge and the inside of the red-rings.
Now, with somewhat older eyes, that may be a much easier reticle.
Re-adapting to relatively crude 1/'4" click adjustment would be 'harder to swallow'. My old 1.0" Dot 6X Hunter scope does have decent 1/8Th MOA clicks.
The BIG fear of the variable-X scopes, seems to revolve around possible cheating - but variable-X scopes, "set and taped" at 6X have been legal since I began shooting NBRSA registered Hunter Class
tournaments in 1977. In today's world, setting & taping would be easily enforceable using a tamper-proof tape, applied at weigh-in. Breaking/activating the tape would result in disqualification: period. The potential down-side would be making certain that I don't mess with your scope!
A D-Q or two, & people would, "get the drift" pronto. BUT, would THAT (any variety of tampering) occur?
I could live, easily and happily, with a weight increase, accommodating many more of the contemporary optics, which could bring more bodies back the the Hunter Class. In the past, MUCH more radical changes have been made - and with little/no discussion/voting - my biggest gripe was, following 1987, opting for the current EASIER two hundred yard target . . . a WAY bigger deal than allowing another 1/2Lb. of mass.
When it comes to magnification, I will staunchly stand for and vote for maintaining the 6X scope & 2.25" fore-end width rules, which are THE salient features separating the Hunter Class from the Varmint [for score] Class. If we aren't growing, we're dying . . .
As pointed out by Pete, records can be and have been retired . . . RG
P.S. edited to correct two year(date) errors.
Two years ago, upon arriving home from the NBRSA Score nationals, I looked into the potential vari-X scope options, I had to 'eat crow' - there were/are far more than I have kept up with. I was disappointed that the [vast] majority voted against accommodating increasing the weight to 10.5 Lb.
In the past, for Hunter Class, I have used up to 1.0 MOA Dot reticle successfully, including garnering my sole 100 Yd. NBRSA National Championship via a 250-16X score.
The large dot is actually a decent hold-off indicator: 'measuring' (visualizing) seems intuitive: center the dot, use the hold-off edge to gauge & reduced gap between that edge and the inside of the red-rings.
Now, with somewhat older eyes, that may be a much easier reticle.
Re-adapting to relatively crude 1/'4" click adjustment would be 'harder to swallow'. My old 1.0" Dot 6X Hunter scope does have decent 1/8Th MOA clicks.The BIG fear of the variable-X scopes, seems to revolve around possible cheating - but variable-X scopes, "set and taped" at 6X have been legal since I began shooting NBRSA registered Hunter Class
tournaments in 1977. In today's world, setting & taping would be easily enforceable using a tamper-proof tape, applied at weigh-in. Breaking/activating the tape would result in disqualification: period. The potential down-side would be making certain that I don't mess with your scope!
A D-Q or two, & people would, "get the drift" pronto. BUT, would THAT (any variety of tampering) occur? I could live, easily and happily, with a weight increase, accommodating many more of the contemporary optics, which could bring more bodies back the the Hunter Class. In the past, MUCH more radical changes have been made - and with little/no discussion/voting - my biggest gripe was, following 1987, opting for the current EASIER two hundred yard target . . . a WAY bigger deal than allowing another 1/2Lb. of mass.
When it comes to magnification, I will staunchly stand for and vote for maintaining the 6X scope & 2.25" fore-end width rules, which are THE salient features separating the Hunter Class from the Varmint [for score] Class. If we aren't growing, we're dying . . .
As pointed out by Pete, records can be and have been retired . . . RG
P.S. edited to correct two year(date) errors.
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jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
When the March Representatives were in Tomball a few months back, I was talking to them about the March Majesta and the need for a cross hair reticle. The subject of their manufacturing a 6x scope with a fine reticle and suitable dot with user friendly target knobs came up, all to weight 15 ounces.
Both of the Women were rather ignorant of HBR. They asked about the size of the market, and there in lies the problem. Anything they built would probably top $2000. How many active HBR Shooters are there?
If they cannot make a profit, they will not build it.
Leupold, Weaver, and Burris ceased manufacturing those scopes for a reason. That reason would have to be rectified for any major manufacturer to consider a move into that market. It kind of a Catch 22. Shooters will not enter the HBR Realm because they cannot find one of the old HBR scopes, and a Manufacturer will not engineer and market such an item because the market is too small.
Or, the Two Major Sanctioning Bodies could amend the rules so shooters could use a heavier optics atop their existing rifle.
Which of those two scenarios is more likely to happen?
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TRSR8
Silver $$ Contributor
The Leupold LRT series 4.5-14x are right in the sweet spot weight wise, 40mm objective 30mm side focus, but need a reticle change. 16 oz.
Years back several IR 50/50 RFBR sporter shooters sourced a version when the custom shop did fine x hair with dot conversions and changed center of focus to 50 yd. For 7.5lb weight max.
Also, with some looking, the Leu. 6X target model with the 1/8 clicks can be found.
Years back several IR 50/50 RFBR sporter shooters sourced a version when the custom shop did fine x hair with dot conversions and changed center of focus to 50 yd. For 7.5lb weight max.
Also, with some looking, the Leu. 6X target model with the 1/8 clicks can be found.
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
There in lies a problem. A new shooter wishing to try HBR should not have to search every corner of the shooting market in an attempt to find one of the old discontinued items that might, or might not be any good to begin with.
If that new shooter wishes to give PRS, F-Class, long Range Benchrest, Short Range Benchrest or Varmint for Score a try, a suitable optic is no further away than any of the numerous retail dealers.
AlNyhus
Silver $$ Contributor
When I decided to get back into the HBR game two years ago, the first thing I did was to dig up some 6X target scopes. I ended up with a Burris, three Sightrons (my favorites) and two Weavers. Five I knew were good and the other one proved to be good, as well. That seems like a lot but when they come available, you shouldn't blink.
You always need a known good back up scope in the HBR game.
rjtfroggy
Gold $$ Contributor
List it in the classifieds. It won't last more than an hour.
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