Old powder test

[Scalloper]

Yesterday I took my grandsons new to him TC Compass in 6.5 creedmore to my shop for load development and to sight in for the upcoming deer season. I have a few old unopen cans of IMR 4350 so I thought I would test that and see what the results would be as I would like to use this stuff up. I settled on 140 gr speer hot core bullets and 39 gr of powder. I loaded 20 rds and shot all while using my Garmin crono. Results below.
Average 2,370
Spread 70fps
STD DEV 20.4
Max 2,408
MIN 2,330
The issue was I had 5 that would not go off. I went back to my reloading shop and pulled the bullets. The primers ignited and the powder burnt but the powder in these 5 did not build any pressure.
I have been using some of this old powder I have off and on for years and never had these results. I probably have 30+ lbs total which stinks. I acquired the powder from various estates over the years. Keep in mind this was an unopened sealed can. I actually was surprised and disappointed as I would like to burn through this old stock safely if possible. Now it would appear I may have 30 lbs of fertilizer.
The 2ed trip back to the shop I loaded the same load but with 40 gr of new IMR 4350. All rds shot fine with
Average 2,460fps
Spread 39.2
STD DEV 14.5
Not great but 1.3" at 100 yds which maybe all this $300 rifle is capable of.

Any value in empty 1 lb cans from the 70s?...

 

[spudgun]

I donated my old powder cans to a local gun shop that had a display of 50's-70's powder tins.

 

[Fire Dog]

Yesterday I took my grandsons new to him TC Compass in 6.5 creedmore to my shop for load development and to sight in for the upcoming deer season. I have a few old unopen cans of IMR 4350 so I thought I would test that and see what the results would be as I would like to use this stuff up. I settled on 140 gr speer hot core bullets and 39 gr of powder. I loaded 20 rds and shot all while using my Garmin crono. Results below.
Average 2,370
Spread 70fps
STD DEV 20.4
Max 2,408
MIN 2,330
The issue was I had 5 that would not go off. I went back to my reloading shop and pulled the bullets. The primers ignited and the powder burnt but the powder in these 5 did not build any pressure.
I have been using some of this old powder I have off and on for years and never had these results. I probably have 30+ lbs total which stinks. I acquired the powder from various estates over the years. Keep in mind this was an unopened sealed can. I actually was surprised and disappointed as I would like to burn through this old stock safely if possible. Now it would appear I may have 30 lbs of fertilizer.
The 2ed trip back to the shop I loaded the same load but with 40 gr of new IMR 4350. All rds shot fine with
Average 2,460fps
Spread 39.2
STD DEV 14.5
Not great but 1.3" at 100 yds which maybe all this $300 rifle is capable of.

Any value in empty 1 lb cans from the 70s?...

At least you did not have the experience that I had with some old Winchester 748 which is a double base powder that apparently became unstable with the nitroglycerin mix and a mild charge in a 308 produced blowback through the action and a case that the primer just fell out of when it was extracted…!
Just lucky not to have had a bolt through the side of my face…
The same thing happened to someone else at the range the following week with their own lot of old, 30+ years W748 powder, such as was my “factory sealed” can of Winchester 748.
Beware “old” double base powders, they can become unstable with the passing of time.
If your old powder has a “off” ammonia smell or discolouration, then it is only fit to put out on the garden and let the nitrogen enrich the soil.

 

[Webster]

At least you did not have the experience that I had with some old Winchester 748 which is a double base powder that apparently became unstable with the nitroglycerin mix and a mild charge in a 308 produced blowback through the action and a case that the primer just fell out of when it was extracted…!
Just lucky not to have had a bolt through the side of my face…
The same thing happened to someone else at the range the following week with their own lot of old, 30+ years W748 powder, such as was my “factory sealed” can of Winchester 748.
Beware “old” double base powders, they can become unstable with the passing of time.
If your old powder has a “off” ammonia smell or discolouration, then it is only fit to put out on the garden and let the nitrogen enrich the soil.

Nitrocellulose is not water soluble. Lay it out in a big trail and lite it off. Some powders are Mil surplus god only knows when it was originally made.

 

[searcher]

It wouldn't seem your velocity and SD were bad enough (within 2%) to cause a case full of powder to burn and not build pressure to discharge the bullet seems pretty odd - even for old powder. Is there any chance you just missed charging those cases? Was there a lot of smoke when your other rounds did exit? I recall, many years ago, loading up some really old Red Dot powder for my .44 pistol. It released enough smoke that one would think I was shooting black powder - but they all still fired, just lower velocity, presumably due to moisture in the powder. Did you happen to do any brass prep that involved water, whereby there may have still been any moisture in a few of the cases?

 

[Evan]

Your loads are very low pressure. If you move up to a higher pressure you may find ignition becomes more consistent. I am shooting surplus powder dating back to the 60s still and it is fine so I’m skeptical that all 30 lbs you have is bad unless there is visible discoloration or it fails the sniff test.

 

[Fire Dog]

Nitrocellulose is not water soluble. Lay it out in a big trail and lite it off. Some powders are Mil surplus god only knows when it was originally made.

You are right about the solubility of powder, some of the powder I dumped is still visible but perhaps the nitrogen in it has gone into the ground. Lighting separates nitrogen from the atmosphere that eventually enriches the soil so perhaps this is going on as well…
I have some WWII Hodgdon 4831 {surplus 20mm cannon powder I think} that finally went off with a bad smell and rust colour and some old 30-06 loads that I have nearly weeded through, still go “Bang” but lots of smoke and a strange smell as well and very erratic fluctuations in velocity though that may also be related to the age of the primers as well…
Pouring old powder onto the garden was told to me years ago and just seemed to make sense. I’m definitely not educated in chemistry..

 

[CJ6]

That's weird.
Just a primer ignition will have enough pressure to lodge a bullet in the bore pretty solid ( don't ask). I don't understand why with the powder burnt too it wouldn't push the bullet completely into the bore at minimum if not completely out.
I'm still using IMR 4350 from 1988 and it's still working fine albeit a bit faster burn rate than newer lots of the same brand/type.

 

[Scalloper]

That's weird.
Just a primer ignition will have enough pressure to lodge a bullet in the bore pretty solid ( don't ask). I don't understand why with the powder burnt too it wouldn't push the bullet completely into the bore at minimum if not completely out.
I'm still using IMR 4350 from 1988 and it's still working fine albeit a bit faster burn rate than newer lots of the same brand/type.

I first thought it was a primer issue but the powder was burnt just a very little charcoal dust in the casings. I dumped that whole can but I do have other unopened cans I can test.

 

[M-61]

may have 30 lbs of fertilizer

Not really

 

[wright brothers]

imr4350 I have one from early 80s and one from early nineties. Both open. I knew their history and it's not great. I proceeded with caution, and all is ok, the loads match my old notes. Now you have me watching this.

 

[Webster]

You are right about the solubility of powder, some of the powder I dumped is still visible but perhaps the nitrogen in it has gone into the ground. Lighting separates nitrogen from the atmosphere that eventually enriches the soil so perhaps this is going on as well…
I have some WWII Hodgdon 4831 {surplus 20mm cannon powder I think} that finally went off with a bad smell and rust colour and some old 30-06 loads that I have nearly weeded through, still go “Bang” but lots of smoke and a strange smell as well and very erratic fluctuations in velocity though that may also be related to the age of the primers as well…
Pouring old powder onto the garden was told to me years ago and just seemed to make sense. I’m definitely not educated in chemistry..

You may be putting strange chemicals into your vegetable garden. Look at a powder MSDS sheet. There are many chemicals in smokeless powder. The MSDS should have warnings about ingesting. I poured a couple cans of old powder under a chain link fence and lit it to get rid of weeds. Killed the weeds but they came back from the roots. At least I got rid of the powder.

 

[Fire Dog]

You may be putting strange chemicals into your vegetable garden. Look at a powder MSDS sheet. There are many chemicals in smokeless powder. The MSDS should have warnings about ingesting. I poured a couple cans of old powder under a chain link fence and lit it to get rid of weeds. Killed the weeds but they came back from the roots. At least I got rid of the powder.

On the Veggies..?! Never!!! However the roses haven’t seemed to mind…
Have set powder trails in days of youth and noticed that there was residue left behind and assumed it was something non flammable. Perhaps the binding agents used in the mix?
Worst experience setting powder on fire was when I put a match to a pile of Black Powder… It flashed so quickly that I had a well scorched thumb, forefinger and the web in between with skin discolouration that lasted for years.
It’s a wonder that I survived those foolish days of youth when I think back on some of the things I did… OR, did not spend time at the Iron Bar Hotel…