Old Anschutz 54

[patriot]

the only time in recent years those actions have done anything of note is with modification to the pin to give it more mass
.

Apparently Newton's Second Law of Motion doesn't explain Benchrest Rifle ignition.

If I find the time I'll rerun a benchmark on firing pin velocity and publish the results.

 

[Tim s]

P.S. For those interested go over to BRC and look at the thread on .22 benchrest and the Anschutz platform .
Interesting opinion shared from one guy that has won several major events shooting one, his opinion of which vintage and why......very informative.

Some guys figure out what works and how to to win, some guys search for answers to questions and never figure out which are the important questions in the first place.

P.P.S. Newton built very few winning benchrest rifles.

 

[patriot]

If I find the time I'll rerun a benchmark on firing pin velocity and publish the results.

Anschutz 54 Shooting Eley Tenex 1066
CED M2 Chronograph Indoors with IR Skyscreens (Chronograph accuracy has been verified against a second CED M2)
Barrel was pre-fowled to eliminate conditioning variability
Five barrel warming shots were fired before each string
Firing pin spring was set at full strength and near minimum causing misfires (string 6 was likely a bit stronger than 2 and 3)

Data suggests that reducing the force of the firing pin in an Anschutz does not hurt accuracy (F=M*A)
A test in 2012 shooting Lapua ammo in another Anschutz showed the same pattern
The one flyer was omitted from the calculations for the full strength data

 

[Tim s]

Thank you professor.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

View attachment 1029672

Anschutz 54 Shooting Eley Tenex 1066
CED M2 Chronograph Indoors with IR Skyscreens (Chronograph accuracy has been verified against a second CED M2)
Barrel was pre-fowled to eliminate conditioning variability
Five barrel warming shots were fired before each string
Firing pin spring was set at full strength and near minimum causing misfires (string 6 was likely a bit stronger than 2 and 3)

Data suggests that reducing the force of the firing pin in an Anschutz does not hurt accuracy (F=M*A)
A test in 2012 shooting Lapua ammo in another Anschutz showed the same pattern
The one flyer was omitted from the calculations for the full strength data

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Where can I get a variable-adjustable firing pin setup for My match 54 so that I can adjust strike force and depth like you did for your test?

 

[patriot]

When Anschutz changed the 1413 bolt from the Match to the Super Match the rear cap became threaded. Backing the cap off reduces the spring power. I'm not familiar enough with the old model to know if the redesigned bolt and trigger are backward compatible.

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd345/bigredplane/Anschutz031.jpg

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

When Anschutz changed the 1413 bolt from the Match to the Super Match the rear cap became threaded. Backing the cap off reduces the spring power. I'm not familiar enough with the old model to know if the redesigned bolt and trigger are backward compatible.

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd345/bigredplane/Anschutz031.jpg

Ok, I thought you were shooting a wing safety 54. not sure why you would want to back off the bolt cap
had that cap come loose on a 1613 and it shot terrible.
one thing I do know if you over drive the firing pin(too heavy a hit) it can cause problems too.

Lee

 

[patriot]

not sure why you would want to back off the bolt cap
Lee

It is difficult to measure the fundamental elements of accuracy in our sport which leads to confirmation bias. Sometimes a simple test can help separate beliefs from knowledge. The are a number of examples where accepted theories haven't held up to testing.

 

[jbell]

Where can I get a variable-adjustable firing pin setup for My match 54 so that I can adjust strike force and depth like you did for your test?

Anschutz triggers like the 5018, & 5020 have slotted mounting holes which allow you to adjust the amount of compression on the firing pin spring. I have seen issues from too little seat pressure caused by the trigger being positioned too far forward. I am pretty sure that the bolt disassembly cap isn't intended to be "adjusted", it needs to be tight. There is a ratchet built into it but that is there so it can be finger tight (to allow for a tool free disassembly) but not back off.

Guys I did not mean to start this pissing match when I mentioned that the newer Anschutz actions (18 & 19 series) have a faster lock time. Everyone has their own opinions as to what contributes to an accurate rifle and I have seen very accurate rifles built on many different platforms. As Tim stated a faster lock time doesn't have any measurable effect on the accuracy potential of a rifle but it DOES have a lot to do with how accurately a rifle can be shot. In no way can a slower lock time improve accuracy of a rifle either from accuracy potential or from how accurately the rifle can be shot. There fore it is generally considered a benefit to have an action with faster lock time. I am a position shooter so it is MUCH more important for me, but it still can play a role in benchrest.

Tim you mentioned that "the older ones are much better", I am guessing you are referring to 14 series of actions as opposed to the 18 or 19 series. I would be very interested to hear why you say this.

 

[patriot]

I'm a position shooter also so faster lock times make sense. That may be one reason the new Anschutz 54.30 appears to shoot so well (or maybe I shoot it better because of an unconscious bias / confidence). The test was run with an older 54, not the 54.30. Dealing with misfires to reduce a little ES seems like a bad trade-off. But the test raises the question of why weak primer impact hurts accuracy. Did Anschutz figure something out with their rim/pin geometry that makes it less sensitive? Was this ammo more tolerant? Was the test sample size too small? Something in the testing protocol introducing bias? Or could the trigger puller, given more time, be the source of the accepted theory and not the equipment?

So it is worth cutting down several 40X springs and burning up another $80 in ammo to see? It might also be interesting to compare the factory pin with the titanium.

 

[Tim s]

Anschutz triggers like the 5018, & 5020 have slotted mounting holes which allow you to adjust the amount of compression on the firing pin spring. I have seen issues from too little seat pressure caused by the trigger being positioned too far forward. I am pretty sure that the bolt disassembly cap isn't intended to be "adjusted", it needs to be tight. There is a ratchet built into it but that is there so it can be finger tight (to allow for a tool free disassembly) but not back off.

Guys I did not mean to start this pissing match when I mentioned that the newer Anschutz actions (18 & 19 series) have a faster lock time. Everyone has their own opinions as to what contributes to an accurate rifle and I have seen very accurate rifles built on many different platforms. As Tim stated a faster lock time doesn't have any measurable effect on the accuracy potential of a rifle but it DOES have a lot to do with how accurately a rifle can be shot. In no way can a slower lock time improve accuracy of a rifle either from accuracy potential or from how accurately the rifle can be shot. There fore it is generally considered a benefit to have an action with faster lock time. I am a position shooter so it is MUCH more important for me, but it still can play a role in benchrest.

Tim you mentioned that "the older ones are much better", I am guessing you are referring to 14 series of actions as opposed to the 18 or 19 series. I would be very interested to hear why you say this.

First of all, try and remember, Anschutz rifles are directed primarily at the position/ISSF world, the benchrest community adapted some of the actions, and their communist copies, Suhl, early on, before the proliferation of quality custom actions came into being with some very important common traits.
There is very little question that the purpose built 22 benchrest rifle is the absolute most accurate/consistant rimfire in the known galaxy @ 50 yards/meters and there are a few very common traits absolutely reqired in an action that are pretty much agreed upon by buliders of guns and actions alike.
This has been tested to death by several and among one of the most agreed upon is the consistancy of ignition and one of the absolute mandatory requirements is that the firing pin be it an SAP or PAS system is that a minimum mass is required which is the basis of what is commonly described as "momentum driven ignition".
The better BR actions are actually somewhat slow in their overall locktime so in this world, slower locktimes do, in fact, add to accuracy when the tradeoff is enough mass to drive very consistant penetration of the case, usually tested with careful penetration tests done by some smiths.
The 14 and 17 series are still used to a far less frequent degree these days, mostly because of modern CNC actions, fewer guys willing to thread them and unfortunately, because even they are right on the edge of ignition consistancy, you can screw everything up easily with a less than optimum spring swap.
Kind of an over simplification but you, hopefully get some of the thinking.
And, for what it's worth, I don't really look at it as anything but a spirited conversation........anything I said here can be rather easily verified, it's all out there.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Anschutz triggers like the 5018, & 5020 have slotted mounting holes which allow you to adjust the amount of compression on the firing pin spring. I have seen issues from too little seat pressure caused by the trigger being positioned too far forward. I am pretty sure that the bolt disassembly cap isn't intended to be "adjusted", it needs to be tight. There is a ratchet built into it but that is there so it can be finger tight (to allow for a tool free disassembly) but not back off.

Guys I did not mean to start this pissing match when I mentioned that the newer Anschutz actions (18 & 19 series) have a faster lock time. Everyone has their own opinions as to what contributes to an accurate rifle and I have seen very accurate rifles built on many different platforms. As Tim stated a faster lock time doesn't have any measurable effect on the accuracy potential of a rifle but it DOES have a lot to do with how accurately a rifle can be shot. In no way can a slower lock time improve accuracy of a rifle either from accuracy potential or from how accurately the rifle can be shot. There fore it is generally considered a benefit to have an action with faster lock time. I am a position shooter so it is MUCH more important for me, but it still can play a role in benchrest.

Tim you mentioned that "the older ones are much better", I am guessing you are referring to 14 series of actions as opposed to the 18 or 19 series. I would be very interested to hear why you say this.

I don't think the slotted holes are for altering the spring compression, however you do inadvertently alter it if you move the trigger group.
the ability to move the trigger group forward or back has to do with timing. you want the sear link to catch the firing pin as you lift up on the bolt to cycle the bolt. timed this way you take most of the firing pin spring pressure off the bolt handle/cocking ramp which makes for an easier closing bolt and smoother cycling action.

a BR rifle lock time speed is not as important as the ability for it to deliver consistent ignition. as long as the ignition process is the same every time it doesn't matter light or heavy, fast or slow. in BR anything to make it shoot the same every time is what matters. consistency is we are after.

Lee

 

[jbell]

Right on guys! Thank you for the explanation, two very different worlds for sure! Benchrest is one discipline I never got into, so I haven't looked into the idiosyncrasies of the rifles.

 

[dolek]

Are the old Anschultz 54 prone guns as good as the new ones for accuracy?..... Jim

Was the original question ever answered ? I was interested at the beginning before this thread turned into a pissing match !

 

[johara1]

yes and no depending on who's answer you read. This is why I started the thread on the trigger replacement ...... jim

 

[jbell]

Dale and Jim, I think everyone can agree that it really comes down to the individual rifle in question. Anschutz have made some awesome barrels over the years and they have put out some duds, ask me how I know...

See how your current rifle shoots, if it shows good potential then build it. From my experience more than not factory Anschutz barrels are good shooters, but not really screamers those are few and far between. But you will never know until you shoot it.