Not Just No, But A Resounding NO!!

[Jack Neary]

Last Spring, several of my fellow shooters and I were discussing NBRSA Varmint for Score, and the conversation soon centered around changing the scoring system to make the existing “X” an “eleven”

this would have little affect on the 100 yard matches, but would possibly have quite a bit of affect at the 200 and 300 yardages.

I polled quite a few shooters in my area and quite a few were in favor of it.

So, at our Region meeting in New Braunfels, it was decided to put it beforeThe Board of Directors for consideration. Or, at the very least, get a discussion going.

I received a text from my Region Director that it was discussed at this years NBRSA Score Nationals, and a vote was taken among the the members present.

The issue did not get one affirmative vote from the 50+ members present.

So, that’s that.

Jackie,
I'm sorry, but your post is not factual.

I called your NBRSA Regional Director, MIke Conry, this afternoon, to see if he had texted (or called) you, as you have claimed in your post. Mike said he has not texted or called you about your agenda item.
I then reached out to Kelly Mormon, our NBRSA Gulf Coast Alternate Director, via text, and also asked if Kelly had texted or called you? Kelly responded he has not....

Not sure who supposedly texted you about a vote during the NBRSA Score Nationals, regarding your submitted VFS scoring agenda item, but it did not come from your NBRSA Gulf Coast Regional Director.

Jack Neary
NBRSA, President
Cell: 440-590-5299

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

For those of you that are speaking in favor of this proposed change, are you telling me that you actually think the target with the 9 and 8 is the better target and it should beat the other target with all very solid10's that are well inside the 10 ring and not even touching the 10 ring?

Wayne Corley

The only thing I'm gonna propose is that your hole punch had an agenda when it shot those targets because those targets would look much different if the near misses of the dot were all line licker 9s(current 10 ring) and the other target, near misses of the next higher score ring. They score the same but would look a lot different, if that's your point..and it appears to be.

And no, the one on the right doesn't beat the other but they are score equally if the dot became a point.
Perspective is what I'd call it. It reminds me of politician spin but we won't go there.

I'll let nbrsa members hash out Jack's comments.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Jackie,
I'm sorry, but your post is not factual.

I called your NBRSA Regional Director, MIke Conry, this afternoon, to see if he had texted (or called) you, as you have claimed in your post. Mike said he has not texted or called you about your agenda item.
I then reached out to Kelly Mormon, our NBRSA Gulf Coast Alternate Director, via text, and also asked if Kelly had texted or called you? Kelly responded he has not....

Not sure who supposedly texted you about a vote during the NBRSA Score Nationals, regarding your submitted VFS scoring agenda item, but it did not come from your NBRSA Gulf Coast Regional Director.

Jack Neary
NBRSA, President
Cell: 440-590-5299

My apologies, Jack. I assumed it was Mike who texted me. He has since called me and said it was not him. I have forwarded the original message to you.

Of course, the matter of whom ever sent me the first Txt does not change the consensus that was arrived at among the Shooters at the Nationals. But as Al said in post #33 in this thread, there might be a consensus for change, just not this.

This item will be presented as an agenda item from the Gulf Coast Region to the Board Directors for their consideration. , that being the correct protocol.

 

[JEFFPPC]

IMHO attendance is not waning DUE to the score system in my region. Other factors are at play. I do, on occasion, use a 6mm in the VFS class and actually won a match against 18 other competitors using 30's. My closest venue offers a cash reward to the top 6mm shooter in addition to agg winner receiving cash. You will loose more competitors than you can ever hope to gain by changing scoring formats.

That already happened when the 30br came into the scene. Match size started to shrink. Of course it also shrank at 300 yard matches, gotta keep those perfect scores. Our club added UBR targets plus made all shoots that the targets allowed 11 points and we have been slowly growing while some in our area are shrinking. Your idea of a 6mm award would have been a great idea 20 years ago when the 30 came onto the scene. Lots of those old 6mm guys just vanished. Don't take this as 30br bashing, I shoot it and enjoy it. Want a comparison, here goes. If the Trans sport garbage continues in certain girls sports there will me only Transgenders in those sports. That is what happened with the 100, 200 yard score game.

 

[P1ZombieKiller]

You can argue that the 30br hurt, but it actually got me started into the game. I think the game will grow if its fun and everyone has a chance.
I have been to matches that were ran like it was a mandate from someone's probation officer in order to fulfill their civic obligation. And i have been to some shoots that are a blast.

When its fun.... they will come.

 

[Will Henry]

I have often been the beneficiary of the X system where I won over a second place shooter who shot better, except for one shot. In one case, the second place guy shot his nine on the first of five-fifteen shot targets. That he then shot a whole bunch of x's on the next four targets meant nothing unless I dropped a point; which I did not. If the x had a point value, he would have beaten me by six points. It is likely I would never win again! WH

 

[LHSmith]

That already happened when the 30br came into the scene. Match size started to shrink. Of course it also shrank at 300 yard matches, gotta keep those perfect scores. Our club added UBR targets plus made all shoots that the targets allowed 11 points and we have been slowly growing while some in our area are shrinking. Your idea of a 6mm award would have been a great idea 20 years ago when the 30 came onto the scene. Lots of those old 6mm guys just vanished. Don't take this as 30br bashing, I shoot it and enjoy it. Want a comparison, here goes. If the Trans sport garbage continues in certain girls sports there will me only Transgenders in those sports. That is what happened with the 100, 200 yard score game.

After reviewing match reports on matches I competed in since 2003 , this is what transpired in my region:
* The vast majority who were using the 6ppc went to a 30. Very few 6mm shooters were never seen again -at least at the venues I attended.
* The biggest impact on match formats was those who were Hunter Class shooters ( mostly 30 cal) elected to shoot VFS -most likely due to the opportunity to accrue more points
* the reasons for OUR matches dwindling in attendance are:
- Difficulty in finding people to run matches- biggest reason for lost venues
- Age -most shooters are well into retirement age and their numbers are declining
- The pandemic cut attendance by 2/3 in 2020 and it has been a struggle up to this point to get within 50% of pre-pandemic attendance.
-SR BR's lack of appeal to younger shooters
I have personally not noticed shooter decline because of the 30's prominence. The shooters I know enjoy well run registered competition and are happy with the scoring system that has
been in place for over 50 years.

 

[P1ZombieKiller]

* the reasons for OUR matches dwindling in attendance are:
- Difficulty in finding people to run matches- biggest reason for lost venues

TRUTH

 

[JEFFPPC]

AftTheer reviewing match reports on matches I competed in since 2003 , this is what transpired in my region:
* The vast majority who were using the 6ppc went to a 30. Very few 6mm shooters were never seen again -at least at the venues I attended.
* The biggest impact on match formats was those who were Hunter Class shooters ( mostly 30 cal) elected to shoot VFS -most likely due to the opportunity to accrue more points
* the reasons for OUR matches dwindling in attendance are:
- Difficulty in finding people to run matches- biggest reason for lost venues
- Age -most shooters are well into retirement age and their numbers are declining
- The pandemic cut attendance by 2/3 in 2020 and it has been a struggle up to this point to get within 50% of pre-pandemic attendance.
-SR BR's lack of appeal to younger shooters
I have personally not noticed shooter decline because of the 30's prominence. The shooters I know enjoy well run registered competition and are happy with the scoring system that has
been in place for over 50 years.

The few that are left do, that a why they still come. The first loss,of shooters was shortly after the 30 arrived. The second has been the Covid fiasco. Yes, few are willing to run a match or even commit to being a helper on a regular basis. Half the ranges I started shooting IBS at it are gone, no matches at all. Some of those remaining only have a match or 2 a year. During that time period in my area quite a few various club matches started most with some former IBS shooters attending. All those matches are still going on although some since Covid are seeing attendence drop this year. It's funny, I have not heard anyone say I have no components I can't shoot. I have heard some say I am saving what I have.....hmmmmmm... for what? No doubt the 30br changed the score game. No doubt clubs and shooters have declined. No doubt the final breaths will be with heads buried in the sand because We Will Never Change!!!! Rest in peace.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The few that are left do, that a why they still come. The first loss,of shooters was shortly after the 30 arrived. The second has been the Covid fiasco. Yes, few are willing to run a match or even commit to being a helper on a regular basis. Half the ranges I started shooting IBS at it are gone, no matches at all. Some of those remaining only have a match or 2 a year. During that time period in my area quite a few various club matches started most with some former IBS shooters attending. All those matches are still going on although some since Covid are seeing attendence drop this year. It's funny, I have not heard anyone say I have no components I can't shoot. I have heard some say I am saving what I have.....hmmmmmm... for what? No doubt the 30br changed the score game. No doubt clubs and shooters have declined. No doubt the final breaths will be with heads buried in the sand because We Will Never Change!!!! Rest in peace.

I'm not seeing a big covid drop off in recent UBR matches in the SE. The North Carolina state match was a double 100 meter grand and filled up at 75 guns. The 100-200 Nats are coming up and they're expecting 120, or very close. The monthly matches might be down a little bit but not a lot and for several reasons, that you've mentioned, combined. Gas and hotel prices don't help either.

I do agree with the point about ranges and people to run them. Not knocking group shooting but that's something that score has over group. One day matches and two day big matches just make it more feasible to more people, especially of the younger crowd who have jobs, families and less time and expendable money...including but not limited to available ranges and willing match directors.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I see guys I have been shooting with for decades that have never offered to help. If you say would you help run targets today most will, that time. Ask them to commit for a season and there is a million excuses. At least they continue to participate. Of course if everyone who got on line and thought themselves to be a shooter competed on a monthly basis, the matches would be booming.

 

[JEFFPPC]

For those of you that are speaking in favor of this proposed change, are you telling me that you actually think the target with the 9 and 8 is the better target and it should beat the other target with all very solid10's that are well inside the 10 ring and not even touching the 10 ring?

Wayne Corley

Your missing the whole point. It's a tie, no one won in this case. But......and here is the point.....both shooters are still in the game and engaged. I think I am the only person on this forum with an interest in both attracting new shooters and retaining current shooters. The shooter who dropped 2 shots is not giving up or worse, packing up and going home. Records gotta keep my record , it's all about me. Retire the record and it's yours forever. Go set new records under a new system and you will have more records. Sad day when you only shoot for a record if for no other reason that in this sport out of several hundred million folks in the US you and maybe 100 other people care about it.

 

[Warren Dean]

Your missing the whole point. It's a tie, no one won in this case. But......and here is the point.....both shooters are still in the game and engaged. I think I am the only person on this forum with an interest in both attracting new shooters and retaining current shooters. The shooter who dropped 2 shots is not giving up or worse, packing up and going home. Records gotta keep my record , it's all about me. Retire the record and it's yours forever. Go set new records under a new system and you will have more records. Sad day when you only shoot for a record if for no other reason that in this sport out of several hundred million folks in the US you and maybe 100 other people

Well said. Sadly, I believe most shooting sports have gone, or are going down that road.

 

[jackieschmidt]

TRUTH

^^^^^^^^

I see guys I have been shooting with for decades that have never offered to help. If you say would you help run targets today most will, that time. Ask them to commit for a season and there is a million excuses. At least they continue to participate. Of course if everyone who got on line and thought themselves to be a shooter competed on a monthly basis, the matches would be booming.

Jeff, it has turned into to (kind of), a regional thing.

The NBRSA Gulf Coast Region encompasses Louisiana and Texas. Eastern Texas and Louisiana are just about 100% Score, while Central and West Texas are just about 100% Group.

we used to have to huge Group Matches in Louisiana and at Tomball. But when the old Hub City Rifle Club in Lafayette, (the home of The Crawfish), shut down, it ended. The Lake Charles Club was strictly a Score Club.

At Tomball, we tried to carry on the tradition of the Crawfish, and the first couple of years we had good attendance. But then around 10 years ago, it went down to nothing. The last NBRSA Registered group match we put on had a whopping 16 shooters.

That killed it. The guys in Central and West Texas simply stopped coming.

So Tomball and Lake Charle went Varmint for Score. We have a strong Club Match program and two well attended NBRSA Registered Matches. Lake Charles has five NBRSA Registered VFS Matches through the Season.

New Braunfels has one Group Match, The Blue bonnet. That’s a four hour drive. All of the other Group Matches, Midland, Lubbock, and Seymour are all at least nine hours away.

 

[Fuj]

Well said. Sadly, I believe most shooting sports have gone, or are going down that road.

More like evolving thru our age timeline.

Jackie !!.....Are there any UBR shoots in your region ??

 

[JEFFPPC]

^^^^^^^^

Jeff, it has turned into to (kind of), a regional thing.

The NBRSA Gulf Coast Region encompasses Louisiana and Texas. Eastern Texas and Louisiana are just about 100% Score, while Central and West Texas are just about 100% Group.

we used to have to huge Group Matches in Louisiana and at Tomball. But when the old Hub City Rifle Club in Lafayette, (the home of The Crawfish), shut down, it ended. The Lake Charles Club was strictly a Score Club.

At Tomball, we tried to carry on the tradition of the Crawfish, and the first couple of years we had good attendance. But then around 10 years ago, it went down to nothing. The last NBRSA Registered group match we put on had a whopping 16 shooters.

That killed it. The guys in Central and West Texas simply stopped coming.

So Tomball and Lake Charle went Varmint for Score. We have a strong Club Match program and two well attended NBRSA Registered Matches. Lake Charles has five NBRSA Registered VFS Matches through the Season.

New Braunfels has one Group Match, The Blue bonnet. That’s a four hour drive. All of the other Group Matches, Midland, Lubbock, and Seymour are all at least nine hours away.

You are correct about the shooting becoming very regional. Fortunately in Pa we have quite a few club matches available. One thing I have noticed is many of those involved with the National Organizations tend to shy from club matches. I personally have contacted and invited several shooters involved as such to come and shoot a local club match and have had zero response. Their loss in my opinion. I would like to say more on that subject but ..........

 

[AlNyhus]

But as Al said in post #33 in this thread, there might be a consensus for change, just not this.

Jackie, just to clarify a bit more:

Any discussion about scoring changes that I personally heard or was part of only happened after the agenda item was brought up in the meeting. Such a big proposed change to the very heart of Score shooting, not surprisingly, is going to stimulate lots of conversations and ideas among those who actually participate. These ideas were along the lines of 'what if' and 'how about', rather than a concensus that a change (of any type) should be made.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[David Milisock]

Last Spring, several of my fellow shooters and I were discussing NBRSA Varmint for Score, and the conversation soon centered around changing the scoring system to make the existing “X” an “eleven”

this would have little affect on the 100 yard matches, but would possibly have quite a bit of affect at the 200 and 300 yardages.

I polled quite a few shooters in my area and quite a few were in favor of it.

So, at our Region meeting in New Braunfels, it was decided to put it beforeThe Board of Directors for consideration. Or, at the very least, get a discussion going.

I received a text from a fellow shooter that it was discussed at this years NBRSA Score Nationals, and a vote was taken among the the members present.

The issue did not get one affirmative vote from the 50+ members present.

So, that’s that.

Don't they already count X's as more, (possibly 11)? If you shoot 9, 10's and 11 X's isn't the score of 90 & 11 X's the same as 211? Counting with your toes instead of your fingers?

 

[brcman]

Your missing the whole point. It's a tie, no one won in this case. But......and here is the point.....both shooters are still in the game and engaged. I think I am the only person on this forum with an interest in both attracting new shooters and retaining current shooters. The shooter who dropped 2 shots is not giving up or worse, packing up and going home. Records gotta keep my record , it's all about me. Retire the record and it's yours forever. Go set new records under a new system and you will have more records. Sad day when you only shoot for a record if for no other reason that in this sport out of several hundred million folks in the US you and maybe 100 other people care about it.

Jeff, have you read the rule change proposal? It would not be a tie because one of the shots is a wipeout of the dot, so the person that shot the 9 and 8 would win the match.

 

[Fuj]

Don't they already count X's as more, (possibly 11)? If you shoot 9, 10's and 11 X's isn't the score of 90 & 11 X's the same as 211? Counting with your toes instead of your fingers?

Unlike IBS and NBRSA, UBR has no X, just a center dot that is scored
as an 11. 6 shots per target, if perfect will score you a 66. And has been
posted many times, the targets are caliber neutral, by being sized to
accordingly . No one caliber is going to run away with it. It's just you
and the conditions.