Has anyone had any issues with bumping shoulders back on Norma brass. I know it's thick and thinking that is the issue. I have 7 SAUM brass that will come out of the FL dies longer(at shoulder) than it went in. I bought a Redding bump die and still some of it doesn't want to set back. Any other suggestions?
Norma brass issue...
- Thread starter Dshooter
- Start date
Is the shell holder so thick that it hits the bump die? Your die may not have as short of headspace as your chamber.
I have had that same phenomenon with Redding dies. Not with the SAUM, because I have a set of Whidden dies. The problem lies in the fact that the Redding dies do not ALWAYS size the case properly, i.e. bumping the shoulders back. I had my shellholders milled down 15 thousandths. This then allowed me to set the dies up to push the shoulders back 3 thousandths. It is NOT what YOU are doing wrong, the fault lies in the sizing die itself.
Ok, a little more detail I left out to help. I use a co axial press. I've had great luck with Forster dies as well. As Shootsdots said, I can pull die off shell holder slightly and sizes great for other calibers. I tried the Forster FL die first. Seemed very tight on the brass. Rubbed the entire case hard and scarred the brass. I milled the bottom of the die and still wouldn't set shoulders back. Then I tried the Redding bump die. It worked, inconsistently, on some of the cases. Others it didn't do anything. These are all once fired from new.
That is precisely the reason I don't own a Co-Ax press. You can't "fix" some of these problems! They are great IF you don't have die problems.
I have had same problems with Redding dies and a Forster press. Not so much with the type S FL dies but with their standard dies. If you take a few thousandths of bottom of die with a diamond file it will work. If the headspace is growing your very close.
If the die doesn’t fit the Brass then waste of time. Norma is thicker and dimensionally different if I remember correctly on the 284 and the dasher Brass they make. Migh be true on your caliber too
rubbed the case hard and scarred the brass?
what case lube are you using? without proper lubing you can't get consistent shoulder bumps.
do you use a compatator to measure fired brass and use that to set your shoulder bump? often 1 firing won't fully fireform your brass. usually takes about 3 firings. just set the die up to size the neck with no shoulder bump until the shoulder measurement stabilizes. then you can set the shoulder bump. A dead giveaway is measure several pieces of your fired brass. if the shoulder measurement isn't exactly the same on all of them then your brass isn't fully fireformed.
i run into this frequently when developing loads. the starting loads are measurably shorter out of the chamber than the warmer ones in the ladder. i was always blaming the low pressure, but that never explained inconsistency within any given step. just thought i was at the ragged edge of too light. thanks.
Not me: I am not a BUMPER reloader, I can not move the shoulder back and I can not find a reloader that can explain how he bumps the shoulder back or how he moves the shoulder back
I will say if what you are saying is true you are sizing cases with a die that is not making it down to the shell holder. If I had the same problem you are having I would measure the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder before I lowered the ram.
When a case has more resistance to sizing than the press, shell holder and die can overcome the case wins, meaning there will be a gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder.
It is possible to add a shim between the deck of the shell holder and base head to increase the presses ability to overcome case sizing resistance. I use that method/technique when I am sizing cases for short chambers.
In the old days, that would be before most reloaders started it was fashionable to grind the bottom of the die and or top of the shell holder, I have never found it necessary but I do have the tool that can grind the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die.
F. Guffey
Ok...im reading all of your feed back and appreciate it. First off, I did remove about .030 off the bottom of the Forster FL die. Yes it is as instructed, touching the shell holder PLUS an 1/8 turn so as not to cam over the press, and I did try adjusting several times each way of that setting. Yes I use a headspace gauge to measure before and after sizing and I use the wax lube. Yes after the first firing, all the brass measured within .001 of each other on shoulder datum line. No I'm not a beginner and yes I have all the proper equipment just to clarify to some that maybe think I'm a long time listener, first time caller. The idea ShootsDots had about the press is valid, but I removed material from the die to compensate for an oversized shell holder. And regardless of how many or few firings on a case, your die should be able to set shoulders back... I load for 300 RUM, 22-250, .223, .308, and now the 7. All except one in question, I can take brand new brass and set shoulders back .002 from new with the FL dies. This one won't do it. Bump die barely moves them from fired cases which are .002 longer than new. Didn't mean to sound rude, just trying to address everyone's opinions. I do try to conceive every possible angle before I post on here. It is a stumper for sure and since Savageshooter86 has experience with this in other calibers, maybe I need to send the die in with some brass and have a custom die made? I do appreciate all the feedback. Again, I didn't mean to sound like an ass, I love reading and learning from the wealth of knowledge on this forum.
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It is just one of those things, I could be the only reloader that has two machines that were designed to 'grind to length' a shell holder and or a die. I have never found it necessary to grind the die and or shell holder, all a shell holder can have is a .125" deck height. a reloader should have at least 3 different ways to measure the deck height of a shell holder. You claim you have a head space gage, to some reloaders everything is a head space gage because they believe everything has head space. My cases do not have head space, my chambers have head space so if you take your head space gage and drip it into the die it should protrude from the die .129" if it is a go-gage length head space gage.
.125" protrusion from the die represents the deck height of the shell holder, the .004" represents clearance. Meaning if the die is removed before lowering the ram the case head protruding from the die should be .125" if the case was sized and returned to minimum length, if the case did not get sized because the case did not get shorter from the shoulder to the to the case head the case head protrusion will not be .125".
I believe it is a bad habit for a reloader to instruct another reloader to grind the die and or shell holder. I noticed you are claiming you have a cam over press, I have at least 12 cam over presses, none of them are RCBS presses. I am the only reloader that has RCBS press operation instructions. RCBS claims they made cam over presses, they also claim the cam over press is a bump press, MEANING? If the press is not a cam over press it is not a bump press. So I ask how is it possible to bump a shoulder back? I find it impossible to bump and or move the shoulder back, the best answer I can get is; "CAUSE"! And then there is the other rational; "SYMATICS", it is semantics.
F. Guffey
I have 2 counter display boxes of C&H dies. On the bottom of the box C&H printed the instructions; they claim the dies in the box were designed to be used with shell holders with a height of .125", the dies were made in the '60s when C&H was located in El Monte, California. For years and years reloaders have made claims the shell holder manufacturer and the die manufacturer had to match. And then I say a reloader has at least three different ways to measure the deck height of the shell holder, I exaggerate.
And then there is that other thing, removing the die and case from the press before lowering the ram.
F. Guffey
And then there is that other thing, removing the die and case from the press before lowering the ram.
F. Guffey
swd
Silver $$ Contributor
If your shell holder is touching the die and it will set back new brass but not your fired brass the fired brass is work hardened and springing back. Either try annealing or trim your die more. I would trim the die so you can load a few times before annealing. If you trim the die you'll probably find you need to trim a bit more than you might think. You will probably also find the more you shoot the brass the lower you will need to set the die to deal with more spring back until you anneal, so trim the die down with some extra. I would take at least another .015" off and slowly turn the die down in the press a little at a time until you get your desired shoulder bump. If and when you anneal set the die higher for that sizing and re adjust for the correct shoulder bump again or you'll find youself with a ton of shoulder bump. I deal with this with a hot loaded BRX loaded on BR dies all the time. No big deal you just have to learn what the brass and rifle like.
I most certainly can try trimming the die more. They are relatively cheap. I did just anneal them all also. Should have known this Norma brass would be a pain; Just got the AMP annealer and there is no specific setting for this brass with unturned necks...haha. I got them(shoulders) back finally, fooling with the bump die but I will trim this die some more and try a few cases again after firing. If nothing, I'll send it back to Forster with brass and see what they have for it.
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