Nitride prcess and "break in"

[4xforfun]

When do you consider your bbl boken in and ready for treatment?
Is it when it quits copper fowling?
Is it when the velocity settles in?


Why I ask is this..in the last 3 years I have "broken in" a bunch of bbls...all but one was an aftermarket tube.
Now, I have had ALL OF MY KREIGERS and BRUX tubes broken in..at least to me, in THREE shots. My definition is when the tube quits coppering..... or at least cleans up fast. All....... I repeat......all of these tubes were VERY dirty after the first shot , requiring many cycles of brushing/cleaning with Butches and many cycles of letting soak for 15 min with Sweets. Cleaned up 10 times faster after the second shot, and reqired only six swipes with three patches soaked in Butches (I turn them inside out for the second pass) and zero brushing and no soaking with Sweets required after shot # 3. I always give them a soak in sweets after the third shot, but the patches ALWAYS came out white. Now, these tubesmay well of had copper in them after the third shot, but a simple patch job removed 100% of any copper fowling.
I had one Lilga tube that NEVER seemed to quit coppering up while i had it. It belonged to a friend and we spent all afternoon with it before he took it home and continued the shoot/clean process. I also did a FACTORY REM 204.....acted just about like my Kreiger/brux tubes...three shots and done. I was amazed at that tube!!!

So, again I ask....when would YOU consider the tube ready to be processed??

Thanks,
Tod

 

[LCazador]

Before you send any barrel in for Nitride treatment you should inspect it with a bore scope and make sure it's clean down to the metal. Anything left in bore will be left there forever after Nitride treatment. I have a bore scope and I evaluate my break in procedure with it. Some barrels take more work than others, but I have yet to find a barrel that is done in less than ten shots.

 

[4xforfun]

Before you send any barrel in for Nitride treatment you should inspect it with a bore scope and make sure it's clean down to the metal. Anything left in bore will be left there forever after Nitride treatment. I have a bore scope and I evaluate my break in procedure with it. Some barrels take more work than others, but I have yet to find a barrel that is done in less than ten shots.

I understand that the tubes need to be "squeeky clean", but you did not answer my question..... when do you consider them "done'?

 

[ab_bentley]

I sent a few barrels off to MMI, none of mine were 100% clean. Literally I went and shot them and when they shot a 5 shot group under .5" I sent them in. The Nitriding process is so hot that what copper is in there melts and burns off, this is what MMI told me. So to answer your question, everyone is right. Squeaky clean is great so is slightly dirty. All of mine shot just as well when I got them back as when I sent them in.

Adam

 

[butchlambert]

Here we go again, Barrel break in!!
Do a search. What do you think you are achieving shooting and cleaning? You are just wearing out your barrel.

 

[ab_bentley]

Butch is right, you pay $350 for a premium lapped barrel. There is a reason for lapping, negate the "break in" process.

Adam

 

[butchlambert]

If you think a little bit. What needs breaking in on a custom barrel? It has been lapped so the lands and grooves are broken in when you get it. The only thing it needs is to smooth out the fluff or burrs from chambering. Just take a bronze brush and wrap a little 0000 steel wool around it. Use your battery powered drill to lap the throat. Clean your barrel thoroughly and it is now broke in.

 

[artbosco]

Re: Nitride process and "break in"

When do you consider your bbl boken in and ready for treatment?
Is it when it quits copper fowling?
Is it when the velocity settles in?

Why I ask is this..in the last 3 years I have "broken in" a bunch of bbls...all but one was an aftermarket tube.
Now, I have had ALL OF MY KREIGERS and BRUX tubes broken in..at least to me, in THREE shots. My definition is when the tube quits coppering..... or at least cleans up fast. All....... I repeat......all of these tubes were VERY dirty after the first shot , requiring many cycles of brushing/cleaning with Butches and many cycles of letting soak for 15 min with Sweets. Cleaned up 10 times faster after the second shot, and reqired only six swipes with three patches soaked in Butches (I turn them inside out for the second pass) and zero brushing and no soaking with Sweets required after shot # 3. I always give them a soak in sweets after the third shot, but the patches ALWAYS came out white. Now, these tubesmay well of had copper in them after the third shot, but a simple patch job removed 100% of any copper fowling.
I had one Lilga tube that NEVER seemed to quit coppering up while i had it. It belonged to a friend and we spent all afternoon with it before he took it home and continued the shoot/clean process. I also did a FACTORY REM 204.....acted just about like my Kreiger/brux tubes...three shots and done. I was amazed at that tube!!!

So, again I ask....when would YOU consider the tube ready to be processed??

Thanks,
Tod

I break in my Krieger and Shilen barrels by: Cleaning, shoot 10 rounds, clean, shoot 15 more, clean, done! Nitride? NEVER.

Here is what Krieger has to say about the Nitride process:

Quote "Frequently Asked Questions
Q: Do you recommend Salt Bath Nitriding

A: There have been many praises of this surface hardening treatment applied to rifle barrels in relation to extended barrel life, easier cleaning, non existent copper fouling. However there are some concerns that must be understood if you move forward with this. The temperature that the steel is brought up to during this process is within the range that can remove the temper from the steel if not properly finished potentially causing the steel to become dangerous and not contain the pressures your cartridge will produce. Any heat treating process done after the rifling process can lead to bore and groove dimensions and uniformity being changed. Also, the salt bath nitriding process produces a very hard surface finish. If the barrel IS NOT broken in prior to this process being done, it will never properly break in. If the barrel IS broken in there could be traces of copper left in the bore (even in the pores of the steel) and will react with the nitriding process in the form of pits or corrosion in the barrel where it reacted to the copper. The person or company you choose to do this operation must be aware of these items and would assume responsibility for what happens to your barrel as all of these operations and procedures are out of the control of Krieger Barrels, Inc.

For the reasons stated above, the answer to this question is no." End Quote.

 

[4xforfun]

If you think a little bit. What needs breaking in on a custom barrel? It has been lapped so the lands and grooves are broken in when you get it. The only thing it needs is to smooth out the fluff or burrs from chambering. Just take a bronze brush and wrap a little 0000 steel wool around it. Use your battery powered drill to lap the throat. Clean your barrel thoroughly and it is now broke in.

Butch,

Not withstanding the fact that you have forgotten more about this stuff than I will ever know, but, as my kids say....."riddle me this". ;D

What has/is hapening to my bbl between that 1st shot, which fowels terribly and is a bitch to clean, to the third shot, which wipes out with a couple of passes of a wet patch?

SOMETHING cirtainly changes. What is it?
Again, with all due respect.

Tod

 

[marwitz89]

If you think a little bit. What needs breaking in on a custom barrel? It has been lapped so the lands and grooves are broken in when you get it. The only thing it needs is to smooth out the fluff or burrs from chambering. Just take a bronze brush and wrap a little 0000 steel wool around it. Use your battery powered drill to lap the throat. Clean your barrel thoroughly and it is now broke in.

Butch,

Not withstanding the fact that you have forgotten more about this stuff than I will ever know, but, as my kids say....."riddle me this". ;D

What has/is hapening to my bbl between that 1st shot, which fowels terribly and is a bitch to clean, to the third shot, which wipes out with a couple of passes of a wet patch?

SOMETHING cirtainly changes. What is it?
Again, with all due respect.

Tod

Butch knows more about this then me but I believe burrs or rough spots in the throat from the reamer are the cause. This will remove copper from the bullet and disperse it down the barrel.

 

[butchlambert]

Tod, Marwitz89 is correct. Eliminate your problem before shooting it.
Outdoorsman, I had a great Kreiger that I melonited. After 5000 rounds Ed Shilen bore scoped it and asked when was I going to start shooting it.
Hey guys, do what ever that gives you the warm fuzzy feeling. I really don't mind what you do.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Why on earth would Krieger want their ,or your barrel to last thousands of more rounds then they would untreated? Think about it....

 

[Syncrowave]

Re: Nitride process and "break in"

the temperature that the steel is brought up to during this process is within the range that can remove the temper from the steel if not properly finished potentially causing the steel to become dangerous and not contain the pressures your cartridge will produce.

I'm curious which manufacturers harden and temper their barrels.

Knowing what I know about steel, this sounds like a very BAD idea to me. Seems to me that you want a barrel to be a lot more ductile than it would be after hardening, even if it was subsequently tempered (unless when they say "temper" they actually mean "normalize," which would mean that the barrel would not be harmed by high temperatures, assuming it was normalized -- cooled slowly -- again after nitriding).

But then again, I'm not a barrel maker so take it FWIW, which isn't much.

 

[artbosco]

If I knew I had a "Hummer" barrel, Nitriding or Meloniting it might be worth it. But doing that to an ordinary or an also ran barrel, to me, doesn't make sense. To each his own.

 

[butchlambert]

Re: Nitride process and "break in"

he temperature that the steel is brought up to during this process is within the range that can remove the temper from the steel if not properly finished potentially causing the steel to become dangerous and not contain the pressures your cartridge will produce.

I'm curious which manufacturers harden and temper their barrels.

Knowing what I know about steel, this sounds like a very BAD idea to me. Seems to me that you want a barrel to be a lot more ductile than it would be after hardening, even if it was tempered (unless when they say "temper" they actually mean "normalize," which would mean that the barrel would not be harmed by high temperatures, assuming it was normalized -- cooled slowly -- again after nitriding.)

But then again, I'm not a barrel maker so take it FWIW, which isn't much.

Barrel mfgs. buy their barrel steel already heat treated to whatever their specs may be. Usually 24-28 Rockwell. The better companies then stress relieve them at some stage during the mfg. process.

 

[4xforfun]

Ok..so..I still haven't gotten a strait answer to my question.

Butch, are you saying to just use the brush and 0000 steel wool and send it in for processing? By shooting the three rounds from the tube and getting the results that I have gotten, would you say that I have accomplished all that needs to be done?

As far as cleaning before sending in for treatment...and if I do end up sending it in after only 3 shots.....I know that there is zero copper by the fact that I get ZERO color change on my sweets patches after a 15 min soak. I wouldn't have any carbon build up after only 3 rounds, so I should be good there. Powder residue is all gone, and I finish with a few patches soaked in break-clean, so no chemical residue should remain. AM I GTG???

Sorry if some of these questions sound redundant, but, if I do try the process, I want to do it right.

Thanks again,
Tod

 

[butchlambert]

Tod,
If you are satisfied with your 3 shot deal, go for it.
Also, when you get a barrel back from the process, clean it thoroughly.

 

[Bob3700]

Butch is correct in saying the barrel does't need breaking in, the throat does. Look at the lead of the throat just ahead of the chamber with a borescope. The machining marks on the lands run 90 degrees to the bore. This is where your bullet deposits the majority of its copper when you first shoot it. As each bullet , and all the hot gases, pass this point, they in effect fire lap the throat smoothing the machining marks out. Hence, throat break-in.

OK, what if you had a method to remove these machining marks without shooting the rifle. Polishing the throat of the bbl after it has been chambered is the key here. Smooth those machinng marks and you can then send the bbl off for hardening without firing a shot.

Some will say how do you know that bbl is going to shoot if you don't try it first. We are talking custom, hand lapped, SS barrels here. When was the last time that anyone has actually had a bad bbl confirmed by the maker? Have put a dozen SS match barrels on rifles and never had one that I felt shot bad cause of defects in materials or workmanship. They are turning out a great product no matter which of the big name bbl makers you choose.

Have had several bbls done and can say that accuracy is not affected by the process.

You can choose to use the process or not, it's up to you. I figure you miss 100 % of the shots you don't take. If this process extends the life of my competition barrels, makes them easy to clean and maintains accuracy, I am going to try it and see for myself.

Bob

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Tod,
Butch and I got into this a while ago. When the reamer cuts the throat the back sides of the lands can form a wire edge burr. Also the junction from the neck to freebore diameters can be sharp. This is where the copper comes from and you can see it with a bore scope on a fresh camber. The way I used to do it was shoot/clean until the throat quit making copper. I tried Butches method with a brush and steel wool and verified it with a bore scope. Brand new barrel, 42 rounds fired, zero copper. Both ways work, copper brush a steel wool is soooo much easier.