Hello All, I have reloaded and shot thousands of shotgun loads. I have shot skeet, trap, sporting clays, waterfowl, upland, well, you get the picture. I love scattergunning. I always stick to the recipes, in fact, when loading duplex steel, I have been known to weigh each charge and shot individually. I always use high class firearms as an added safety. I recently acquired an interest in reloading pistol rounds. There are some things that have me confused: when a recipe calls for a specific (brand) bullet, how critical is that? In a shotgun, it doesn't care what you feed it in lead shot size (#9 to #4) or manufacturer, as long as you get the shot weight to powder right, and use the specified shot cup (generics available.) Plus the shot cups have those accordion pleats to take up any discrepancy in load length. A 109 primer is a 109 primer, doesn't matter who made it. AA shot cups comes from many sources, they all shoot the same. So, it seems like a solid cast lead bullet at 125 gr, shouldn't make any difference if it is round point, wad cutter, plated or jacketed, it should all fit a recipe calling for a solid 125 gr cast lead bullet. Hollow bullets would probably be a different situation in that they will expand differently and engage the barrel differently probably varying pressures. Is any hollow lead bullet interchangeable with any other of the same weight? Is a brass casing for 38 Spl, interchangeable with any other brass case in 38 Spl. (assuming brand name quality: Federal, Winchester, etc.)? Do solid 38 Spl cast lead bullets that weigh 125 gr from various manufactures all shoot (reload) the same (safety)? After you load and shoot many rounds, you get a feel for what you can safely substitute in reloading shotgun shells. You learn what variables are important and which ones you can safely substitute. I assume the same is true of bullet reloading. I am not asking if I should follow good recipes, Only an idiot would not follow a reputable recipe. I am asking what are the general rules of substituting, what seem to be, components of industry-wide standard dimensions. In 2 3/4" 12 ga you are loading 13 to 17 gr of powder. A half a grain makes little difference. However, when you are loading 3-5 grains of powder, a half a grain is a significant amount of the total charge, and will change how deeply you can set the bullet. Bullets don't have those nice accordion pleats on the bottom. Components have to fit exactly to be safe and work properly. It appears that bullets, cases, and primers (oranges to oranges) are pretty much equal (substituteable) among various manufacturers. Powder bulk varies among brands and types so no substituting here. OAL of the finished bullet is not negotiable and appears to be based almost entirely on the powder being dropped. I have not loaded bullet one yet, and I don't want to have to go back and pull some apart because I didn't make a safe product. Does it seem like I have a decent handle on how to do this? I shoot revolvers, so that is an additional "fudge factor." They will eat stuff a semi-auto might puke on. Thanks for your thougthful judgement! Regards
New to bullet reloading, recipe substitutions
No!
There is a huge difference in COAL (Cartridge Over All Length) between round nose, round nose flat point, hollow point and wadcutter!
Even if they are all the same weight.
It is simply due to the shape of the bullet.
There are also different pressures when dealing with different types of bullet construction.
Along with differences in velocities.
Typically with lead bullets you will want to stay below about 1,000fps.
But if you use a harder lead, that can be speeded up, considerably.
Adding a gas check to the bottom of the bullet can speed it up even more.
So, essentially with pistol cartridges, a bullet is not a bullet, is not a bullet.
Look for recipes for THAT bullet.
Particular attention should be paid to the COAL.
Since the pistol cases are small volume, any difference in COAL and or charge weight can have a significant difference in pressure.
There is a huge difference in COAL (Cartridge Over All Length) between round nose, round nose flat point, hollow point and wadcutter!
Even if they are all the same weight.
It is simply due to the shape of the bullet.
There are also different pressures when dealing with different types of bullet construction.
Along with differences in velocities.
Typically with lead bullets you will want to stay below about 1,000fps.
But if you use a harder lead, that can be speeded up, considerably.
Adding a gas check to the bottom of the bullet can speed it up even more.
So, essentially with pistol cartridges, a bullet is not a bullet, is not a bullet.
Look for recipes for THAT bullet.
Particular attention should be paid to the COAL.
Since the pistol cases are small volume, any difference in COAL and or charge weight can have a significant difference in pressure.
I was never under the impression that a 209 primer was a 209 primer.
Some reloading Data is proprietary as in for a specific brand of bullets or powder.
We are advised to follow the load data exactly as published but that is not always doable.
Bullets of the same type size and weight can usually be used indiscriminately. A 38/357 158 grain LWSC is basically a 38/357158 grain LSWC, a 9mm 124 grain FMJ is essentially a 9mm 124 grain FMJ.
Primers can and do make a difference but generally do not depending on the load. Low pressure rounds like the 38 Special or 45 Automatic probably not an issue.
The same for the case.
There's a reason why they publish a starting load.
Some reloading Data is proprietary as in for a specific brand of bullets or powder.
We are advised to follow the load data exactly as published but that is not always doable.
Bullets of the same type size and weight can usually be used indiscriminately. A 38/357 158 grain LWSC is basically a 38/357158 grain LSWC, a 9mm 124 grain FMJ is essentially a 9mm 124 grain FMJ.
Primers can and do make a difference but generally do not depending on the load. Low pressure rounds like the 38 Special or 45 Automatic probably not an issue.
The same for the case.
There's a reason why they publish a starting load.
3Ackleys
Gold $$ Contributor
Well to start off shotgun primers are 209's not 109's. And there is a difference between different brands- you always need to use the one specified in the data source. Reloading of any type of ammo requires an attention to details, otherwise you would be way better off buying factory ammo.
Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
Many handgun "recipes" leave enough space for double charges. A bit more attention required than a shotgun by volume powder bushing loader.
Use starting loads, work up.
Handgun data compared. Lead vs Jacketed.
Plated is close to lead data.
Magnum primers work in all.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/load-data-lead-vs-jacketed-bullets.265/
Handgun data compared. Lead vs Jacketed.
Plated is close to lead data.
Magnum primers work in all.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/albums/load-data-lead-vs-jacketed-bullets.265/
OUCH! That would leave a mark!
COAL is correctly measured from the base of the cartridge (the headstamp) ro the ogive (where the projectile increases to the caliber of round), not to the end point. Consult your reloading manual for those SAMI measurements.
charlie b
Gold $$ Contributor
BTO is base to ogive. SAAMI lists COAL as base to end of bullet, at least on the drawings I've seen in their database.
saami.org
SAAMI Standards - SAAMI
NOTE: Dimensional information for cartridges and firearm chambers, along with performance characteristics, are contained within the American National Standards published by SAAMI, listed below (SAAMI Z299.1 for Rimfire, SAAMI Z299.2 for Shotshell, SAAMI Z299.3 for Centerfire Pistol & Revolver...
saami.org
Let's keep it simple for the newb, and not dive in to the ogive.
Every reloading manual that I have gives a COAL.
And for a newb just getting into it, is understandable.
Yeah, there might be a few thousandths difference in actual bullet length, between each individual bullet.
But he's not reloading for 1,000 yard benchrest.
He's loading pistol cartridges for target and possibly carry ammo.
Every reloading manual that I have gives a COAL.
And for a newb just getting into it, is understandable.
Yeah, there might be a few thousandths difference in actual bullet length, between each individual bullet.
But he's not reloading for 1,000 yard benchrest.
He's loading pistol cartridges for target and possibly carry ammo.
brokeasajoke
Silver $$ Contributor
Ive been doing this wrong for decades then. I always understood COAL to be total length and CBTO to be base to ogive.
Same here.
You might want to rethink that statement. Use a dictionary for each of the words in cartridge overall length if necessary... especially the word overall.
I believe COAL would be the distance reported by a caliper if one arm is placed across the bottom of the round dissecting the primer and the other arm across the nose of the bullet so as to give the largest possible reading obtainable with that specific cartridge. There may be fancy engineer terms for the arms or other things but I don't know any. I think it still gives the image.
mmcu
Gold $$ Contributor
Nope.
The SAAMI cartridge overall length is clearly shown in every reloading manual that I have. This one just happens to be from the Nosler #6 manual.
What you're describing is what I call the "cartridge base to ogive" length, which is critical to know when determining bullet jam, or jump, in relationship to the lands.
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The term is handloading ammo for handgun or rifle not bullet reloading. An improperly used acronym is OAL that's "over all length" which could be used for anything as in the "sum length" for a boat and trailer. For a piece of brass with no primer it's "case length" not OAL if you add the primer It becomes OAL meaning the sum length of the installed primer and the case. That same piece of brass with a primer and a bullet now becomes a cartridge so the term "cartridge over all length" would apply and be measured from tip of bullet to base of case. If measuring to bullet ogive it would be "cartridge base to ogive". I handload shotgun ammo and I always thought that primers, wads, and weight of shot and shot filler affected the performance and safety of all of my ammo.
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