New Shooters verses the cost of doing business

[dreever]

Another thread asked "Is shooting a dying hobby?" Perhaps competition is what's dying.
Look at the cost of doing business to compete. I don't care if you're shooting short range, long range, F Class whatever, to be competitive even a little bit takes money. Just look at the current prices on custom bullets. Fifty bucks a hundred. Then consider the cost of a competitive rifle, throw in $1000+ scopes and mounts, front rest rear bag, etc. etc. etc.!!!!!!
Now you have a young guy, likes to shoot, learned with his Dad, married, wife, couple of kids thinks he wants to start shooting competitively........untill he starts adding up what it's going to cost him. He's done before he even gets started.
I'm an old fart, and most of the other shooters I shoot with are too. In twenty years who'll be left?
Hell sometimes I think I should sell all of this crap, the money I'd get would pay for a new vehicle, or a month in Euorpe for my family. I've cut back on shooting because of the expense, as I'm sure lots of you have too. Sooner of later the cost of doing business will make me say it isn't worth it anymore and that will be that. Some old friends I've shot with over the years have done exactly that and moved on to less costly hobbies. Time will tell if there is much of a future for the shooting sports or not.

Danny

 

[AlNyhus]

Hi Danny.

What are some of your ideas about reducing costs?

 

[Eddie Harren]

Hey Al, I think Danny wants free bullets, $1 a pound powder, and a ride to and from the range.
Seriously though, I am seeing the Hunter and Varmint Hunter classes dying out in the East. I would urge anyone, who wants to "get their feet wet" in IBS score shooting, to consider these classes. Very competitive Rem. rifles and cheaper scopes can greatly reduce the initial outlay. Unfortunatly rising copper and lead prices have pushed bullet costs up so there are no savings to be had there. I've been shooting the 6X scopes for almost 20 years and I really hate to see this dicipline go down. At the IBS 100-200 score nationals this year, there were 3 VH shootersand only 12 Hunters.

 

[cycbb486]

Danny I think you could not have put it better. I enjoy my hunting and shooting immensely. Will it last? Who knows. Cost for me is what regulates it. I do not shoot nearly what I would like. I live approx 7 minutes from our 100 yard range in town. I could spend every day there just sending an agg down range out of my 6BR and hundreds of rounds out of the tricked out 10/22. I walk over and shoot the steel swingers with the 22 then step back to the bench and paper. Talk a little B* with the guys there and move on. I almost enjoy just being there to talk to whoever comes along.

This year I started a Bat actioned 6PPC project. Why so much money tied up in one gun I sometimes ask myself? I just have to have one even though I may never shoot a match. I just love seeing them tiny little holes downrange. So why not have possibly the best to do it. I think about it everyday as to whether or not I made the right choice in the adventure. Quality components are a pain to get up into Canada. Is it going to be worth the headaches that come with it. Time will tell. Thank God our dollar has come up to the US currrency somewhat to make the endeavor a little more affordable.

In regards to shooting a match, like I said it probably will never happen. When one starts to factor all the equipment that is required to shoot the match and the transportation costs involved I begin to realize that people who told me you do not need a lot of money are WRONG.

I do not own a lot of guns but the ones that I have I am proud of and enjoy shooting. Yes I have a few that were given as gifts as a kid growing up and some hand me downs but those never get shot. They just sit there as a memory of this or that person. I have my Browning Gold 12ga, Sako TRG in 30-06, Rem 700 6BR, and my tricked out Ruger 10/22 as the guns that are used along with the new PPC in the spring.

As a husband and father of only 1 daughter I feel that shooting can slowly become a dieing sport. This can be accelerated or decelerated depending on what your expectations are regarding shooting.

This is my thoughts. There is so much I could say to explain but I get tired at punchng the keyboard as I am not the greatest typer.

Good luck,
Take Care,
Calvin

 

[AlNyhus]

DocEd: Very good points. I'm in an area of the country where the 6 power BR class is seeing increased participation. I was one of the 12 Hunter competitors at this seasons IBS 100-200 Score Nationals, so I know what you're talking about.

The reality of 6 power BR classes is that they have evolved from what was originally designed as an entry level class into full blown BR rifles with slightly different rules than the 10.5-13.5 Varmint guns. There isn't anything wrong with this...but it has closed the door on the 'little guy' that just wants to try his hand at BR w/o investing a bunch of greenbacks into a rig.

I feel strongly that there should be an 'entry level' class in registered BR shooting. There are lots of ways this could be done, but it's up to a progressive sanctioning body to accomplish it. I have some ideas about how it could work...simple rules being the main idea.

As far as the high cost of traveling to the matches...well, I guess that's just a matter of doing things in a way that fits each persons budget. I'm also supportive of the concept of a large Score 'Super Shoot',for lack of a better term) that would offer large cash purses to the winners. I think this is a concept whose time has come...but not everyone feels the same way. Basically, you have people that want to move our sport ahead and you have people that want to keep it as it's always been. Problem is.."always been" is in reality "long gone".

I could ramble all day about this and that..interested to hear ideas from others. -Al

 

[Kodiak99317]

Guys, I agree we need a "super stock" class to get new shooters into competitions. A class were you just bring what you got, a class that has no rules, other than the rifle must be bone stock. This is what HBR once was and we need another class like it. In long range up here in Canada, they are starting a stock Fclass type class were the rifle must be original, you can play with the trigger, but the action and barrel witness marks must line up.

Regarding the costs of shooting... here's the first two match of last year,2006) cost breakdown for me. Match one, Day two was called on SNOW, so long drive for one day of shooting. There was two of us in the Jetta that day so the gas was cut in half for costs.

Match One,out of Province, i.e., a long way away)
Loaded Rounds,50)- $24.06, Gas,Saskatoon to Calgary & back, 750 miles) - $57.00/2=$28.50, Entry Fees $30.00 per day, Food & Lodging,Stayed at a Friends place) - $30.00 I bought supper. Now you have to eat anyways so the real cost total was only a total of $82.56

As you can see, the biggest cost was the diesel and it's a good thing I drive a Jetta and take along a fellow shooter, or it would be more than 4x that figure in fuel.

Match two,local, 1 day Palma, only me in Jetta)
Loaded Rounds,53) - $25.50, Gas,Saskatoon to Nokomis & back, 217 miles) - $16.14, Entry Fees $30.00. Again the total cost is approx. only $71.64

Compare this sports to the cost of golfing, or drag racing or sky diving or racing or showing horses, or even a night out to a movie with the wife and kid, with popcorn and pops, this is over $100 these days, now... shooting is cheap, and to some, more enjoyable! All other sports require some money for equipment too and the cost of clubs is about the same as a rifle, the cost of a plane and chute, or a truck, trailer and a horse, well I don't have to go on right.

Plus, if you have the equipment, why not use it?
Use it or loose it, that's what my Dad says

I've been shooting comps for over 18 years,mostly BR and for the last 2+ years 1000 yd Fclass) and the shooting costs have gone up, they have about doubled, but so have the costs of everything else, bread, gas, meat, vehicles, houses... JMHO. About the only thing that has not doubled, wages!

It's like trying to justify the costs of hunting, you can't! The fuel costs more than the meat would if you just went to the store, unless of course if you take your horse or just walk hunt!

Keith

 

[Forum Boss]

Al,

This ties in with a concept I proposed in an earlier thread about a one-design benchrest rifle. My goals were: 1) Affordibility; 2) uniformity,to keep competition equal and allow economies of scale for components and avoid an "arms race" for ever-more expensive gear); 3) versatility,to create a gun that would shoot very well at a variety of distances).

My idea was for a rifle that would cost about $1500 complete with 24X,or greater) optics.

Here in California, despite our high population, closing of ranges and curtailing of competition programs is a growing problem. Hence I think that a gun that can compete in a 100-yard match BR match, a 200-250 yard "fun match" at a club, a 300m match, a 500 yard varmint shoot, and a 600yd BR match would be a good thing.

The current gun of the week shows what can be achieved with VERY inexpensive actions,although I would not advocate use of barrel blocks in a one-design gun at this point).

What would the gun be like? My thinking is something with an MBR Tooley style stock, a 36X Weaver/Sightron,or 6-24 Bushnell), 26-28" barrel, shooting a no-turn 6BR,or possibly a 6XC or 6.5x47, so long as everyone shoots the same caliber). The idea is everybody shoots the same action, bbl size/contour, and optics.

Many people liked the idea. Some folks said "I get it--it would be like NASCAR--tight one-design rules creating close competition". Others said: 1) It won't work because North Americans want to customize everything and won't accept the one-design concept; 2) It won't work because the short-range benchrest guys have no interest in creating another class for a "do-it-all" one-design.

As to #1, I think this ignores the interest in Service rifle and Garand competition, or GSSF,Glock shooting sports)--all very tightly-controlled one-design comps. As to #2, it seems to me that if one-design class shooters pay their share of 100/200 yd match fees and do their range duties it shouldn't be a problem at the local level. I can understand how the big matches, such as Kelbly's Super Shoot, may feel they have enough with existing classes, however. The real objection I hear from the 100/200 yd shooters seems to be a macho/pride thing: "Well your dang pre-loaded, no-turn, long-bbl One-design won't ever shoot zeros like my Panda-actioned 6PPC and 10-barrel inventory so your idea is stupid." The short-range guys have also said, "We don't want some low-rent, one-design on the line. The nature of Benchrest is to have the very best possible equipment--state of the art stuff, best of the best. We are the Formula One of the shooting world and we don't want our matches sullied by a bunch of factory-actioned 6BRs that can't agg in the ones."

I have no doubt that a well-built 8-twist or 10-twist 6BR can shoot 1/4-MOA at 100/200 and hold 1/2-MOA or better all the way out to 800 yards. To me that's enough accuracy to let you have a lot of fun at many distances. And if I knew I could spend a max of $1500 and be competitive with everyone else on the line, that would be a big attraction.

To be honest, I don't understand the vehemence of the objections I've heard from the short-range guys. We're just talking about adding another class. The idea is you could shoot a 100yd BR match one week, a 300yd varmint shoot the next, and then maybe compete at 600 yards once a month as well. More venues, more chances at competion, all with a lower overall cost--that's the concept.

 

[457ciSBC]

Al,

This ties in with a concept I proposed in an earlier thread about a one-design benchrest rifle. My goals were: 1) Affordibility; 2) uniformity,to keep competition equal and allow economies of scale for components and avoid an "arms race" for ever-more expensive gear); 3) versatility,to create a gun that would shoot very well at a variety of distances).

My idea was for a rifle that would cost about $1500 complete with 24X,or greater) optics.

Here in California, despite our high population, closing of ranges and curtailing of competition programs is a growing problem. Hence I think that a gun that can compete in a 100-yard match BR match, a 200-250 yard "fun match" at a club, a 300m match, a 500 yard varmint shoot, and a 600yd BR match would be a good thing.

The current gun of the week shows what can be achieved with VERY inexpensive actions,although I would not advocate use of barrel blocks in a one-design gun at this point).

What would the gun be like? My thinking is something with an MBR Tooley style stock, a 36X Weaver/Sightron,or 6-24 Bushnell), 26-28" barrel, shooting a no-turn 6BR,or possibly a 6XC or 6.5x47, so long as everyone shoots the same caliber). The idea is everybody shoots the same action, bbl size/contour, and optics.

Many people liked the idea. Some folks said "I get it--it would be like NASCAR--tight one-design rules creating close competition". Others said: 1) It won't work because North Americans want to customize everything and won't accept the one-design concept; 2) It won't work because the short-range benchrest guys have no interest in creating another class for a "do-it-all" one-design.

As to #1, I think this ignores the interest in Service rifle and Garand competition, or GSSF,Glock shooting sports)--all very tightly-controlled one-design comps. As to #2, it seems to me that if one-design class shooters pay their share of 100/200 yd match fees and do their range duties it shouldn't be a problem at the local level. I can understand how the big matches, such as Kelbly's Super Shoot, may feel they have enough with existing classes, however. The real objection I hear from the 100/200 yd shooters seems to be a macho/pride thing: "Well your dang pre-loaded, no-turn, long-bbl One-design won't ever shoot zeros like my Panda-actioned 6PPC and 10-barrel inventory so your idea is stupid." The short-range guys have also said, "We don't want some low-rent, one-design on the line. The nature of Benchrest is to have the very best possible equipment--state of the art stuff, best of the best. We are the Formula One of the shooting world and we don't want our matches sullied by a bunch of factory-actioned 6BRs that can't agg in the ones."

I have no doubt that a well-built 8-twist or 10-twist 6BR can shoot 1/4-MOA at 100/200 and hold 1/2-MOA or better all the way out to 800 yards. To me that's enough accuracy to let you have a lot of fun at many distances. And if I knew I could spend a max of $1500 and be competitive with everyone else on the line, that would be a big attraction.

To be honest, I don't understand the vehemence of the objections I've heard from the short-range guys. We're just talking about adding another class. The idea is you could shoot a 100yd BR match one week, a 300yd varmint shoot the next, and then maybe compete at 600 yards once a month as well. More venues, more chances at competion, all with a lower overall cost--that's the concept.

It's amazing the parallels between this sport and drag racing. I hear the exact same issues from fellow drag racers, whether it's head's up run what ya brung "fastest street car" racing, sportsman "class racing", professional "Pro Stock" racing and even entry level bracket racing. The costs are pushing seasoned people out of the sport or preventing new people from getting into it and the guys with the deep pockets keep going faster every year.

Mike

 

[usngunner]

IROC bench rest. Interesting concept.

I think this very issue is why the F-TR class is rising in number of shooters, and the other HP disciplines,at least locally) are declining.

I can take my off the shelf Savage .308,except for the stock) out with Black Hills 175 match factory ammo, set up on my bipod, and win the TR class, and take 2nd overall at my local match.

There are more and more guys showing up with the varmint rigs in .223 and .308 shooting in the Target Rifle class. I think the reason is that we know it's head to head ballistics wise. If you read wind better, and break your shots clean, you win.

I was going to go shoot in the factory Varmint class benchrest matches, but I would have had to put my original stock back on, and I don't have it anymore. Such is life.

I don't know if an IROC style identical gun match would fly or not. Shooters are odd ducks when it comes to that stuff.

For example, I almost replaced my factory barrel that shoots sub moa with a custom barrel because "It has to be better!" LOL, luckily I figured out the one I had was shooting as well as I could use it anyway so I didn't.

I guess my point is, for a long time even though I knew better I felt like I had a disadvantage. Now that I have a couple of thousand rounds through it in the last couple of years, I'm getting to the point I think I'm shooting as tight as the barrel allows, and when it burns up I'm going super match. Then I should be able to make use of the consistancy it gives.

 

[AlNyhus]

Paul, I think you'll find more support for the idea of a 'Formula' BR class than you think. Matter of fact,'Formula BR' would be a good name for the class. But even if you could do a 'Formula' rifle for $1,500 incl. optics,which I don't think you can), that's still a lot of scratch for most family guys to peel out to try BR shooting.

My idea is more along the 'run whatcha brung' concept..with a few basic rules..more along the lines of what Hunter class originally was.

But there are always costs involved in any hobby. Guys may not like spending $300 for 1,000 BR bullets and decide to go fishing instead. Pretty soon, that same guy has a 10K bass boat with more money spent on electronics than he sold his BR rifle for.

Competitive shooting does require a certain amount of disposable income, though. Lots of shooters become enamored of trinkets and gizmos and get caught up in the 'more money = better accuracy' mindset..all the while losing sight of how important good, basic equipment is. Most people would be shocked to see the basic gear being used by many winning BR shooters.

 

[dreever]

Eddie: Bring my free bullets and dollar a pound powder and pick me up for Thurmonts first match in the spring. Oh, by the way I'll need lunch also. LOL!

Seriously, it's tough to do. At the Ground Hog Matches I shoot there is a factory class which is great for the guys just starting. Unfortunately the winners circle sees factory Sako,I think it's TRG).308's costing $2500 with Nightforce scopes. I'm guilty too, since my factory Savage .223 has a 12-42 Nightforce BR in Badger rings shooting off of a $700 rest with Edgewood bags. That sort of twists the factory connotation, but it's within the rules. Putting a price cap on sounds simple, but do you go suggested retail, or what?
In IBS score shooting you can go the hunter or Varmint Hunter classes, but what does a competitive rifle cost? Same goes for optics?
Perhaps classes like Silhouette A,AA,AAA,and International? Never happen with IBS or NBRSA. It's pretty daunting for a new green shooter to have to compete in the one class games shooting against the likes of Boyer,Breeden,Apple, and yes you too Eddie especially if he just has a factory Savage with an inexpensive scope. If he does, do you think he'll be back next month to finish 45th out of 45 again?
The Ground Hog matches are thriving, but there is no sanctioning body. Rules are different from club to club, so what's legal at one might not be at the next. I see a lot of new guys come once, get discouraged, and then thats it. You don't see them again. Also for a club to add classes just causes more hassle and besides who wants to "Win" a class with only one or two shooters and take home five bucks after spending double that just on gas?
Rimfire is another place that used to be for beginners hell now we have $15-$20 a box for ammo and those rifles are costing as much as a full race PPC. You won't save any money there.
Al, I don't know the answer, but attendance is falling off, clubs are canceling matches, and there's no new blood in sight.

 

[USAPatriot]

To be honest, I don't understand the vehemence of the objections I've heard from the short-range guys. We're just talking about adding another class. The idea is you could shoot a 100yd BR match one week, a 300yd varmint shoot the next, and then maybe compete at 600 yards once a month as well. More venues, more chances at competion, all with a lower overall cost--that's the concept.

If the system in place won't allow for flexibility, then what's needed is a different system. Call it ASS, Amateur Shooting Sports - or perhaps something not quite so provocative - and make up the classes and rules to fit your needs. I know of no univeral law that says competitions have to be held under an IBS or NBRSA umbrella.

It IS stifling. When I was a member of Ben Lomond Gun Club one of the things that got my goat was that the club board was working furiously towards getting the range NRA certified, which is fine, but I personally have no interest in service rifle competition. So I saw all this energy,abeit being expended at a snail's pace) being focused on a goal with only a limited interest level in the club. I virtually never saw members out there practicing with service rifles, quite the opposite, most were at one level or another shooting for group at 100 or 200 with bolt guns, either stock or slightly customized.

There should be a system in place for the rest of us. Hey, I like to shoot bugholes but my 6BR won't fit into any class I know of. Maybe F-Class. The way to even the score is to perhaps at least on one level open up the "sit down, any gun/any sights field so-long-as-you-shoot-from-a-tripod-and-no-rear-bags-allowed,or whatever) shoots." It's amazing how removing a rigid rest levels out the playing field. Right off the bat you encourage all of us disaffected types that never had a venue for OUR interests,lots of skills, NO money) and at the same time it discourages those others that spend their way into the record books.

Point is, there should be something for everyone. If the existing systems won't allow for it, well, adapt and overcome. -Rod-

 

[Eddie Harren]

Afew local,read East Coast) clubs, that held IBS matches, started offering Factory Class. As IBS didn't have any rules governing this "class" it was left up to each club to have its own rules.,sound familiar Danny). We, at Thurmont, decided on factory barrel, chamber, stock and trigger. Bedding was allowed along with trigger "Tuning" but no aftermarket triggers. 24X power scopes were max allowed. We had five shooters at the first match, Three of them became VFS shooters, one never came back and one still comes but rarely shoots. We did have two factory shooters at the "Bud" last June. One bought a VFS from another shooter and the other has never been back.
I think now, as it has always been, new shooters seem to be taken aback with BR shooters. I've read posts on other sites where BR shooters are referred to as "BR snobs" and "Know it alls". I often ask these posters what match and, at what range they encountered these types. Rarely do I get an answer. In my experience BR shooters have been some of the nicest and most helpful peopls that I have ever known.

 

[tootalloutdoors]

Hi there guys. O.K. I'm one of these shooters that is just starting out shooting completely by my self. I think the reason for that is my location. N.W. Montana. Although I've learned that there is a record holder for some 1000yd match that took place 100 miles south of me in Missoula Montana."Something" creek range. He lives in my little home town of Columbia Falls. The only place I could ever see me competing is there in Missoula, MT. The reason is simply geographics.
I'm 46 years old and I work full time. All my vacation is taken during hunting seasons with my family. I can not be traveling the country. It does seem that it would be better if I lived on the eastern part of the country.,closer to many more matches).I have competed in archery here on the state level and it was a whole different ball game. It seemed there were plenty of local and state matches.
Missoula I can make. Over east is just to far to think about it, logisticly. Oh well that's just me. I'm sure that there are plenty of people living around these other places that are put off by the costs. I'm trying to come up with a front rest for my bench shooting now. I wish I was a machinist!! Good God they are horrendously over priced. But if I was a machinist and saw what went into them I wouldn't think so. NAH!!! They're WAY over priced. Oh well. This was just a point of view from a pre-beginer. Are all you guys retired? Where do you get the free time? Not a smart assed question, maybe ignorant but still a serious question. Have a good one...tootalloutdoors

 

[dreever]

I'll agree with Eddie, when I started shooting BR all of the guys I talked to were immensely helpful. Guys like Dick Grosbier, David Apple, KL Miller, Dean Breeden, and of course Eddie Harren just to name a few, went out of their way to help me get started and become a better BR shooter. I don't shoot BR anymore,my interest are elsewhere) but I do miss the camaraderie and all the guys I became friends with. I think those new factory shooters see all those 250's being shot with all those X's and become overwhelmed since a factory rifle just isn't going to perform like a full house BR rifle.

Mayberry Maryland at their Ground Hog Matches has a factory Bi-pod class that has a scope power limit also which I think does pretty well,Jeff Reed, jump in here if your listening). Perhaps that's what it takes, no fancy rests, however Sinclair makes a real nice $300+ bi-pod so there you go again and that still leaves open the door for those Sako TRG's with factory muzzle brakes and bi-pods.

I don't have any answers that's for sure. I just see the turnout getting smaller as the dollars keep getting stretched. It's tough for those young family guys since there aren't too many wives that will understand why $50 of the grocery money went for a box of Clinch Rivers that won't last but two matches if your lucky.

Danny

 

[StephenPerry]

Wind Talkers
I have done something to help shooting in Southern California.

DISCLAIMER
I do not claim any accuracy for what I say and step on toes where they need to be stepped on. LaLa

Since Al and I are computer BR buds on another Forum I have prior rights with him. Al cut out the car comparisons with shooting. Might be the same red neck crowd but we don't need fans to come to the Winter Nats packin. I like me Drags and me likes me BR period, they don't get mixed up except for here in my words.

Getting back to what I see in getting new shooters into BR and other shooting Sports. First I have run 2 BR Schools at San Gabriel that got over 100 people together and we taught Moderator half he knows about BR when he was at BR2. I am just awndry enough to have BR3 in 2008 at Angeles, come on out. Computer BR generates many opinions including my well thought out speels. I am in no way Rush Limbaugh and don't want to be. But that is where it should end, all these ideas about the new guy are his problem some of you guys are selfish in what you have done or will do. Let the new guy makes his way. Why not work your ideas through the NBRSA/IBS, I did. I brought NBRSA & IBS BR to So California with the help of my Directors, 10 years now. This will be our 4th IBS year, now going to Angeles Range. Quit talking and do something instead of stamping ASS on your forehead.
Tough response to some hollow ideas. I respect your ideas but come up with some constructive plans that work inside the existing groups. Where would the NBRSA and IBS be today without our Pioneers. My feelings are you guys would be shooting cyberspace benchrest where the loser gets shot with his own rifle by the winner.
Benchrest will not die when we die. The younger generation will become middle age where most BR guys start and will do just fine.
Stephen Perry

 

[dreever]

Stephen,

You may have done something to promote shooting BR in southern California.........thing is we don't all shoot short range BR, or live in California.

To quote some comments from your above post, you allude to:

"Wind talkers"
"Stepping on toes where they need to be stepped on"
"Quit talking and do something instead of stamping ASS on your forehead"
"Tough response to some hollow ideas"

It's interesting that there is "Stephens way, or the highway"
To the statement that you taught our Moderator half of what he knows....well, I sincerely doubt it.

You continually are combative, disrespectful, and downright rude to some of the posters and contributors on this site which is probably why you were booted from benchrest.com.
I acknowledge that you have some valuable information and lessons to contribute, but others have too, and you should show them the respect that they deserve.
You've had the opportunity in coming to this site to mend your old ways and turn over a new leaf and start fresh where most of us do not know you. You can still do that without slipping into the quagmire of past mistakes.
Perhaps you should take a long hard look in the mirror to see whats becoming "Stamped on your own forehead" before it's too late.

Danny Reever

 

[Forum Boss]

As I stated in previous posts and previous threads, my idea of a one-design class is not intended to displace existing BR competition or existing classes. The idea/concept/goal is simply to create a tightly-regulated class with an affordable platform that would provide fun, "high-performance" competition at multiple distances. By "high-performance" I mean the ability to shoot 1/4" at 100, 1" or so at 300, and under 2" at 600. I have a Savage 6BR with a PacNor barrel that can do that, so I know it's possible without a custom action.

Maybe F-Class does that already--but F-Class is shot from the ground, and we've found that more people seem to be interested in bench shooting than on the ground shooting.

Likewise, one could say that Service Rifle competition also provides cost-effective competition at multiple distances. However, by all reports, we've seen a real decline in position shooting nationwide, and a large segment of the shooting audience would rather be shooting with a scope than iron sights.

There are many different ideas being tossed around in this thread. That's a good thing--we're all interested in seeing participation in the shooting sports increase. One thing that has me focused on a one-design class is I see how successful that is in Europe, with over 150,000 shooters competing in regular matches with pretty much the same rifle--A Sauer 200 Target Rifle. Because of the high numbers of participants, Sauer sells this rifle at a relatively low cost, and components,such as pre-chambered barrels) are available at very low-cost. The gun was designed from the ground up to require very little custom gunsmithing.

Low cost, versatility, commonality of components, avoiding the need for costly, delay-prone custom gunsmithing--I think these are all things that could enhance participation by new shooters.

Al Nyhus and others may be right, however, that the simplest solution is more "run what you brung" competition--open to all rifles.

 

[ballistic64]

Hi there guys. O.K. I'm one of these shooters that is just starting out shooting completely by my self. I think the reason for that is my location. N.W. Montana. Although I've learned that there is a record holder for some 1000yd match that took place 100 miles south of me in Missoula Montana."Something" creek range. He lives in my little home town of Columbia Falls. The only place I could ever see me competing is there in Missoula, MT. The reason is simply geographics.
I'm 46 years old and I work full time. All my vacation is taken during hunting seasons with my family. I can not be traveling the country. It does seem that it would be better if I lived on the eastern part of the country.,closer to many more matches).I have competed in archery here on the state level and it was a whole different ball game. It seemed there were plenty of local and state matches.
Missoula I can make. Over east is just to far to think about it, logisticly. Oh well that's just me. I'm sure that there are plenty of people living around these other places that are put off by the costs. I'm trying to come up with a front rest for my bench shooting now. I wish I was a machinist!! Good God they are horrendously over priced. But if I was a machinist and saw what went into them I wouldn't think so. NAH!!! They're WAY over priced. Oh well. This was just a point of view from a pre-beginer. Are all you guys retired? Where do you get the free time? Not a smart assed question, maybe ignorant but still a serious question. Have a good one...tootalloutdoors

tootaloutdoors, the closest,relatively speaking) IBS matches
that I know of to your location are the 600 yd. IBS matches in Pierre,SD that the VHA holds every year.They do have a stock class which helps keep the cost down for new shooters,again relatively speaking.But again as you say,a lot of the matches are held on fridays making it somewhat prohibitive to a lot of shooters.
The VHA also has thier yearly Jamboree,which is basically a week long event with heavy,light and stock classes with varying yardages under 500 yds.
I know what your saying about work and all,because I only live about 2 hrs from Pierre and still havent made it to the Jamboree yet.Hopefully this coming year.

I think if kids are introduced into shooting,be it hunting,informal plinking or whatever,the chances of them getting interested in some form of formal competition as they get older is much greater.I have to admit,when I was younger,teens-mid 30s)I had no interest in competitions,but as I got involved in more forms of hunting my interest in competition shooting grew with it.I was always fascinated with the accuracy of benchrest and it made me try to gain more accuracy in reguards to hunting.This,I believe is where the connection was made for me.As the popularity of long range hunting continues to rise,not trying to raise a pro-con issue about it) I think you'll see more people taking an interest in competitions such as the IBS.JMO

 

[JER]

Everything you guys are talking about already exists. It's NRA/CMP Service Rifle.

A $900 to $1200 off the shelf rifle is good enough to win the President's Match, the National Trophy Individual Rifle Match, and the NRA Service Rifle Championship.

In addition to that rifle, a $10 GI canvas sling, a $25 shooting glove, a $150 shooting coat, a $200 spotting scope, something to lie on the ground, and something to carry this stuff around the range will get you competitive.

You don't even need to reload to start with. Many people make Expert and Master every year with Black Hills factory reman ammo loaded with either Hornady's 75 or Sierra's 77.

Anyone can start with a bare minimum of equipment and a rack grade AR.

There is a reason why there are thousands of shooters during CMP rifle week at Camp Perry.