New Shooter

[SeaWasp]

Greetings all !

I have recently been investigating range shooting. I will be looking at retirement soon and would like to equip myself before "fixed income" rears its ugly head.

The concern of the available shooting facilities had me locating what type of ranges are available in my area. Seems that a 600yd range is an hour away, with some 300 (and shorter) ranges closer by.

I will be target shooting only, and have some-what limited funds for entry level equipment. ($1K to $1.5K tops at this time).

Ive done some reading, and have dropped by a forum or two (joined one) and have asked for opinions and some tips and have several suggestions so far. (Rem, Sav, 5R 300win etc etc.... Nightforce and other optics as well as rings, bases ....). Havent really got to pods, bags, loads, and such yet but looking forward to it.

The assistance that members here have offered to entry level wanna-bees (that's me too) is excellent !!! Everyone here seems really kind and willing to help-out when they can. Looking forward to, and would appreciate any, advice and/or suggestions as to a "Entry Level Package". I have been looking at the 20" barrel for light weight reasons.

 

[RonAKA]

Welcome to the forum. Your post is somewhat similar to one not long ago. Here is a post with my thoughts:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/forum/index.php/topic,3751524.msg35881475.html#msg35881475

Some additional thoughts based on your post. Nightforce make great optical equipment, but it is not exactly in the best buy for your dollar category. A 20" barrel for target shooting is very unusual for a centerfire. Perhaps OK with a .22 rimfire. Look for 26" or more in a centerfire target gun.

You really have to reload to target shoot. Don't underestimate the quality/performance of Lee loading equipment. Their anniversary kit is a great way to get started. You may replace a few items in the kit with something better, but there is no hurry.

 

[FryeGuy]

Welcome! I agree w/ ROnaka, in that you need to reload to target shoot. I wouldn't think about a Nightforce right now, that would eat up your entire budget it looks like. One kit that would get you started reloading also is the RCBS rockchucker supreme, I think they have a very nice rebate program going on right now, and you will have pretty much everything to reload except dies, brass, powder, primers and bullets. THose will come seperately. I think also if you are going to be on a tight budget later on, then you should look at component prices as well for the caliber you choose. I would pick something on the smaller side. .22 & 6mm bullets are much cheaper than .30cal bullets, they don't have the recoil either. also a smaller capacity case will take less powder. primers are all the same $$$. a .223 or 6br will take much less powder, and both will do excellent at 600yds and under, I also wouldn't go out and buy a brand new Remington, they have really gone up the last few years, and it would be very easy to plunk down $1,000 just for a stock factory rifle, that may or may not shoot well. try to find a used leupold as well, they all carry the same warranty. 6br brass (lapua) might be more expensive at the start, but not considereing how long it lasts. It will last a very long time. maybe one of the new savage target rifles would be a good gun pick, or find a good used custom built on a rem action.

 

[SeaWasp]

First off, Thank-you "SO" much for the excellent responses.
I've been absorbing so much information that at times I wonder if I'm over my head with so many choices and different products.
I had expected to just buy ammo and hadn't considered doing my own loads, but now I am !!

I may be delusional, and/or mis-informed, but I was hoping to find a "Entry Level" package that would get me in the door (so to speak) to this sport of LRS. I do realize it will take time to learn the "art" and the equipment, but was hoping to gain most of my knowledge by becoming involved, shooting, talking with other shooters, visiting ranges, and learning what works for me, and what doesn't.
If anyone here could recommend a "Factory Package" (including optics) that could get me on this path, please recommend it.
Limited funds, and travel to a range, does limit my ability to get the top-notch equipment, but then again, I'm new at this and want to test the waters cautiously.
I would to thank the responders of my post, for they have been very informative and helpful.

I'm not hoping someone will tell me what to do, just hoping that someone might know, or feel, their is a factory pkg out there that is within my budget, and can facilitate 100 to 600yd ranges.

Thanks again for the kindness, and information, you have shared w/me. Hope to be reading some more responses about entry level equipment !!

 

[SeaWasp]

I've checked out the RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Master Reloading Kit Md: 09357 and have the option to add the
RCBS Series A Full Length Die Set 223 Remington Md: 11101.

This would run me nearly $500, so I'm currently looking at $1K for rifle and scope. I believe choosing this ammo equipment for the 223 narrows my search.

Thanks again for the assistance !

 

[FryeGuy]

don't spend $500 for the reloading package!! I think they are around $300 to $350, and there is a rebate, so some would come back to you. redding dies are what I prefer, and I think most guys here will tell you to get redding over rcbs dies. you might post a want to buy in ad section here, and you would be suprised at how much you may be able to find used. also check midway, brunos, graf's, and gunstop.com. I personally like gunstop, I have ordered several things from him. call them up, he is a really nice guy (John). he won't kill you on shipping like some will.

 

[FryeGuy]

midway has the rcbs rockchucker supreme kit for $322. I would ask here thou, and try to save money by getting used equipment cheaper, then you have more for gun&scope.

 

[RonAKA]

It is easy to spend too much on reloading equipment. Except for dies and a shell holder you get everything you need in the Lee Anniversary Kit for $80 or so. The .223 is a small cartridge and you don't need a big mother of a press.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=423081

Their deluxe 3 die set is another $29 including the shell holder.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=776391

That puts you in business to reload, and you can replace components as you become more sophisticated, or not, if you are happy with what you have.

Here is a good article on what you really need to reload, and what is optional.

http://www.optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#/tools-of-the-trade/4529825076

 

[FryeGuy]

I think RONAKA is onto something there, that is a good package if all you are shooting is .223. It would also save you enough to buy a decent scope.

guns. there are only two factory rifles I would recommend for what you want to do. savage target rifles, they come in 6br, 6.5x284, etc. heavy barrels, good stock, accutrigger, etc. I have never owned one, but I have also never heard a single complaint about one either. the other rifle is an thompson center ICON, in precision hunter. they come in .223 to .308 calibers. they also are chambered in the 6.5creedmore, which would be a great long range caliber. I think the savages are around $1000-1100? and the Icon is around $1100-1200. the icon's have a $150 rebate going on right now, which is a huge plus. I also think they are a LOT Better that the savages, (boy I will get arguments on that one from all the savage fans). but go look at an ICOn action, they are nice, then go look at a savage. My father in law just bought a savage in the long range hunter, in 6.5x284, and is getting good groups from it. only problem with a 6.5x284 is barrel life (short). I personally have 2 icons right now in .308 win, just the regular weight barrels, and they will flat shoot, and they look great too.

 

[mkg]

This would run me nearly $500, so I'm currently looking at $1K for rifle and scope. I believe choosing this ammo equipment for the 223 narrows my search.

SeaWasp, I'l throw my two cents in here . The 223 is a great calliber and will do all that you are asking, great starter out to 300yds and will teach you a lot about wind at 600yds. However , and this is just my opion the 22-250 is more versitile in that after you have shot for a while you can rebarrel to 243 or 308 win. with a simple barrel swap. The bolt face is the same for all three cartridges. The down side is the 22-250 does use more powder ( about 9 grains or so ) and the 22-250 will use your barrel up faster . It all dependes on how much / how often you shoot and how well you take care of your equipment.

That being said the Savage Model 12 VLP or BVSS are very accurate rifles in my experiance . The accutrigger is good to start with and can be upgraded should you decide to do so . To this point my guns still shoot better than I do so I have not had the need. The stocks on these guns are laminate so they are fairly heavy. The barrels are fluted varmint contour 26" and depending on model ( VLP or BVSS ) come in different twist rates 1:9 or 1:12 . 1:9 would shoot a heavier bullet with less wind drift than 1:12. All in all the gun alone is going to be about 10 #'s .
As for a scope the Weaver Grand Slam series have been great scopes for me ( 6-20X42 varmint dot is what I use ) very repeatable and reliable.
With the rifle and scope using weaver Grand Slam rings and bases you should be in for about $1050 a little over but I'd rather spend the extra $50 and be happy and confident in my gear.
Again this is just my opinion and what has worked for me.

Mike

 

[RonAKA]

Some options to cut scope costs would be to consider the Bushnell Elite 3200 and 4200 series, as well as some of the mid range Nikons, and the Weaver Grand Slam already mentioned. Here is a good link that ranks scope quality by mfg and model. You probably want to stay away from the ones near the top due to price, and the ones near the bottom due to quality or lack of. As a rule I like to avoid the made in China ones, with Japan being the preferred source country.

http://www.opticstalk.com/topic8185.html

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recommended_riflescopes.htm

 

[Kenny474]

Look to Savage if you want a good to go target rifle. They make several models that will fit your needs perfectly. The only issue being that most all the .223 rifles have a 1-9 twist that will somewhat limit you in bullet selection. They do have a few models with a 1-7 twist, but they are a bit more money (apprx.$1000) and you do have a budget. But that being said, if you were to go with a .308, there are several good options available. It will recoil a bit more, and it will cost more to load for, but it will reach 600yds with ease and there are also a few good options for factory ammo as well that could be used until you start to reload your own.

The 10FP comes to mind for a budget rifle, as it has a nice heavy barrel 24" long that would work well for up to 600yds with the .308, and it may even work with the .223 as well, though you will be limited by the 1-9 twist.

Then there is the 12 LRPV Left Port, which has a 1-7 .223 barrel, and also has the option of a 6BR with a 1-8 twist that would be great for your needs.

The 12 VLP DBM also has a 1-7 .223 option as well.

There are several different ways you could go, the only limiting factor is the 1-9 twist found in most .223 rifles. The 10FP would be a great start, though it's twist will limit bullet weight. The others are a bit more money, but have a better twist to handle heavier bullets. The LRPV's option of going with a 6BR is a great way to go, as it's a very capable round.

Then you have the target rifle series. They are some excellent rifles that will probably shoot better than you can for good while. The FT/R has a .223 option, and the F-Class and Bench Rest both have 6BR options. Any of them will likely serve you well.

Look around and see what you like. You are the one spending the money and firing the rifle. You have several options just with Savage. It's who I would go with, wait, I already did.

 

[mkg]

SeaWasp , I agree with Kenny474 ... go take a look at what is offered ( by Savage ) . I initially bought a 22-250 BVSS and a 300WSM VLP . As I shot more and got to know what I really liked I decided that I really prefered the BVSS stocks palm swell compared to the VLP . I got on SavageShooters.com and traded my VLP stock for another BVSS . It's totally personal prefrence .

Mike

 

[clannagael]

I support what everyone else says: Savage is likely the best bang for the buck, so to speak.

I bought the Rock Chucker reloading kit for $229 new, on sale (regular $249) at a local store. So you can definitely find them cheaper. For the .223 you can get roughly 200-250 rounds out of a pound of powder, so keep that in mind.

As far as a package - Last year I walked into a bigger local store, found a Savage 12 BVSS in .223 on the shelf for $750. I asked the kid what he'd do for me if I bought a whole shootin' match (rifle, scope, rings, ammo). They sold me the rifle for $650, Nikon scope, couple of boxes of ammo, etc. Out the door for $1000. It's definitely doable. That Savage is an amazing starter rifle for anyone in my opinion. The kid at the shop told me that day that they haven't been able to move the BVSSs since Savage came out with the low profile stocks. If that's something you're interested in, look around 'cause I'm sure other places are having the same problem.

The .223 in 1-9 twist will last you a long time - long enough to figure out how to reload, shoot, what you like/dislike, etc. The 1-9 twist barrel shoots everything up to the 70 gr Berger VLDs very nicely. Some people have reported having some success with the 75 gr A-Max, but I've not tried them. The powder and bullet selection is widely available and it's very economical to reload too. It's almost the perfect starter caliber. I shoot my to 600 yards with 69 gr SMKs and 70gr VLDs no problem. Keep in mind that the 22-250 is a barrel burner. As far as the LRPV in 6BR, that's one fine factory rifle, but it's a bit spendy for a starter rifle on a budget.

Lastly, optics - Nightforce is certainly nice, but you can get a really nice used scope off of the classifieds on this site or buy a new one for less than $500. Sightron and Weaver make great "starter" scopes. The Sightron SII 36x42 BR D or the comparable Weaver T-36 are excellent for shooting 100-600 yards. Check the classifieds here, there are some great deals.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Dave

 

[SeaWasp]

WOW!!!!

Thanks so much for the "awesome" responses !!!

This is Great information !!!! I really appreciate the time you all took recommending loads, caliber, manufacturer, and optics...
and the good-to-go with the used/for sale thread here !

I'm going to follow links, and absorb all this information you have provided. This is Great stuff which I believe will point me toward what I want, for what I want to do.

Thank-You All So Much !!!!

 

[mkg]

SeaWasp , My name is Mike and I'm a 22-250 fan !
Yes you'll get about 1/2 the barrel life compared to 223 assuming the same care and maintenance. The reason I brought it up as an alternitive is that, and I think most here will agree , that once you get to 600 yds it's only 400 more 'til you get to a 1000 yds. It's slippery slope . At 1000 yds a little more juice and heavier bullets will make your life easier hense the 243 and 308 options.

Mike

 

[Kenny474]

I forgot to mention this in my last post, but the Lee Challenger or 50th Anniversary kits will load perfectly good ammo for a lot less than the RCBS kit. I have been using one for quite some time, and although I have upgraded to a Classic Cast press, most of the stuff from the kit still gets used. The kits can be had for around $100 if you look a bit, and have nearly everything you will need. It will leave you a lot more money to invest where it counts, in the rifle and optics. Any press will load good ammo for the most part, but not every rifle or scope will shoot to expectations.

For about $160 you can get the Lee kit, dies and calipers and the case length gauge and case holder for the Lee trimmer included in the kit, and be loading for half the cost of the RCBS kit and be just as well off. Go with the Lee deluxe die set with Full Length die and Collet sizing die. They work well and are far less than a comparable bushing neck die, Fl die and seating die set. I use the collet dies for several calibers and they work great and produce rounds with very little run-out. Yes, the bushing dies offer a bit more flexibility, but at much greater cost. Like I said before, spend the money where it counts now, in the rifle and optics package. You can always upgrade dies and small bits later, it's much harder to upgrade the rifle or optics and usually costs much more as well.

 

[SeaWasp]

The Lee system looks great !!! I'll be sure to read up on it more.

I'm considering:

18115 223 REM n1 in 9" 22"n 43" 8.5 lbs 4 $864.00

Any comments on it ???

 

[mkg]

SeaWasp,

First you'll loose a little muzzle velocity going with a 22" barrel vs a 26" barrel. Secondly , I wouldn't count on much from the simmons scope. I bought a pkg heavy barrel 22lr with a simmons scope on it, it held zero but that's it. Could not dial for range and return to zero repeatably.
I think you'll find that what you are attepting to do does not lend itself to pkg guns. Most pkg deals are for hunters shooting in the 100 to 200 yds range. Mid to extended range ( 300-600 yards ) is a different ball of wax all together and requires a different level of equipment.
I'd stick to some of the advice you've gotten here. Either BVSS or VLP ( whichever feels better to you ) in 223 1:9 twist 26" bbl is better suited to what you had originally described.
Also don't take the prices off of the Savage pages as gospel , you can do much better shopping the online dealers. For instance I found the rifle you posted for $700 at one of the online retailers.

Mike

 

[Kenny474]

I too feel that you are looking in the wrong direction. The scope included will leave much to be desired, and the pencil barrel will heat up way to fast to be much fun at the range.

You are going to need a longer, heavier barrel to do what you plan. At least 24", and 26" will be much better for a .223. And it needs to be a heavy barrel or you will spend more time waiting for it to cool than actually shooting.

The LRPV's or BVSS or similar are much closer to what you will need. And sorry to say it, but forget about the package deals, they are for hunting and not 600yd target shooting.