New kreiger .223 help!

[searcher]

JLOW; I have a pair of 1-7 tw Krieger DCM Heavy contour barrels. One shoots very well with the 77 smk (and Berger 72) with N140, while the other favors the Nosler 77 Custom Competition with RL15 after sorting the bullets by base to ogive and weight. Neither barrel does appreciably better with anything lighter than the 72's.

LAZER: As Kodiak mentioned, your 1-8 tw. barrel is fast enough to stabilize the 69's. That does not mean your barrel will favor them over lighter bullets. There is also no fear of over stabilization as it relates to accuracy unless shooting a cheap bullet at hyper velocities. You will lose a bit of velocity but shooting accurately can trump a minor velocity loss - depending on which you prefer. I too believe that the flat base bullets will perform best at the shorter distances and are easier to find a good load with. I do find that the 50 grain Hornady V-Max bullets to be exceptionally accurate for what I think to be a VERY reasonably priced bullet for the performance they give for informal target shooting and varminting. I'd use the Bergers or SMK's for more serious work. Custom bullets are nice too. You can buy the V-Max bullets in 500-round boxes packaged as "Z-Max" bullets for around $60.00 for 500. Right out of the box, they are capable of shooting sub 1/4" 5-shot groups if your rifle likes them. All of my rifles like them to some level - the worst putting them into 1/3" in no-wind conditions (all 100 yds.) They have a slight boat-tail and good
BC's for their weight. Here are a few loads that work in all of my rifles to some degree of good;
Win. brass, Rem 7 1/2 primer, 25.8 Varget, 50 or 52
grn. V-Max, 2.250" o.a.l. 3,150 f.p.s. from a bolt gun

Lake City brass, Remington 7 1/2 primer, 52 grn.
moly-coated Bergers, 23.8 IMR 8208 XBR

(informal target load) Lapua brass, 52 Bergers (bare), 24.0 IMR 8208 XBR,
Federal Match primer, bolt gun

(super varmint load) Lake City brass, 50 grn. Z-Max, 23.0 Reloader 7,
Federal Match primer, 3,226 f.p.s. from bolt gun


69 smk's with 23.5 Varget, Win. cases, Fed primer

I assemble a lot of A/R's for friends for serious varminting and I now just shoot a few groups of each of these loads through the rifle and one will always shoot very well. I do use either Remington 7 1/2 or Federal A/R match primers in all loads for use in the A/R's. Natchez shooters supply has both in stock as of this morning. Go to Brassmanbrass.com for unfired lake City cases for A/R's. Had them in stock as of last week. Lastly, if shooting bullets under 50 grains, try using Accurate Lt-32 powder as is dynamite in these .223's! Be sure to work up to these loads, starting about 1 1/2 grains lower than shown, increasing 3/10ths at a time max.! While not hot in the rifles I have shot them in - they could be in yours! Hope this helps. have fun!

 

[searcher]

Should probably clarify the described velocity loss. That is compared to using the same bullet with a slower twist barrel. Sorry for any confusion - as you will get higher velocities using the lighter bullets than the heavies - of course.

 

[jlow]

Thanks! Searcher!

 

[Rtheurer]

OK so Im going to play the Devils advocate here.. .300" for 30 rounds straight??? In the same group? Shooting from a bench takes some knowin. Not trying to be disrespectful but your getting into Benchrest Quality gear to do that for a full 30 rounds if I read the origional Question correctly. I can get lucky and shoot a 5 shot group in the .2's every now and then but am NO where near good enough or have the equipment to do that for 30 rounds. My skill level is not even close. My rifle may have the ability but the shooter ( me ) sure is heck can not.
Sorry just had to ask. Again not trying to be disrespectful and hope you get what your looking for. Would like to see a 30 shot group in the .3" That would be neat.

Russ T

 

[searcher]

I understand your suspicions. I too shoot benchrest (point blank) as well as F-class and 600 benchrest. I didn't add that I do use high-powered quality optics (mostly Nightforce 6X42 NXS) and have sled fore-ends on my AR-15's and shoot off of a solid bench and rest with a Gator bag on the rear. I also have done load development on some guns to the point the barrels were toast. Always striving to get one hole. Once I find what works I bore and move to another projecty. kinda sick. The skinniest barrels I own in .223 are the Krieger heavy DCM contours I mentioned. The rest are Krieger Varmatch 26" tubes on the A/R's, a Hart and a Shillen. Those who haven't shot an A/R with a truly good barrel normally don't apreciate what they are capable of. I also did not mean to imply that my guns will ALWAYS shoot 5 shots into 1/3", group after group, day after day, despite conditions, etc. Not so! In no-wind conditions when the gun is tuned, they absolutely do so MORE OFTEN THAN NOT when I do my part. My objective was to guide someone towards something that may work in ones' rifle and what the product was capable of under good conditions using good gear. Throwing a red-dot sight on a pencil-barreled A/R shot off a bopod will dissapoint anyone expecting 1/4" groups - with any bullet. It is not so much that I shoot well - good equipment and a tuned rifle can help make us all look pretty impressive. I wish I could always shoot 1/3 m.o.a. under all conditions. If I could - I'd beat a lot of far better shooters than I.

 

[Lazer]

Thanks searcher for all the info! Russ, I tried to post some picks it will help out to show where I'm at and what I expect. I can't get the pictures on here from my I phone could someone give me a quick rundown. I don't have any problems posting on other sites? It says error or to big or something.
Thanks lazer
Russ , it's 5 shots on 6 targets on one sheet of paper consecutive, that I am trying to improve on, this is prone w a front and rear bag. Any help posting Picts will be appreiciated !

 

[boltman223]

Thanks searcher for all the info! Russ, I tried to post some picks it will help out to show where I'm at and what I expect. I can't get the pictures on here from my I phone could someone give me a quick rundown. I don't have any problems posting on other sites? It says error or to big or something.
Thanks lazer
Russ , it's 5 shots on 6 targets on one sheet of paper consecutive, that I am trying to improve on, this is prone w a front and rear bag. Any help posting Picts will be appreiciated !

It might work if you go to tinypic.com, copy and paste the link. that's what I have to do with my phone. There is directions on sticky's in the classified section I believe.

 

[rcw3]

Try the 8208XBR and N-140. The first is a stick powder, the N-140 is not. I have an almost stock VTR that shoots 5 in a hole with the 69SMK's and N-140. My other is a Custom SPR .223 with a Bartlein in 7.7 tw. It shoots the 80SMK's and 8208XBR 5 shots one hole at 100. Good luck! 8)

Uhh - the N140 I have been shooting for a lot of years is a stick powder (albeit short sticks but a stick powder nonetheless) but if yours isn't a stick powder, I would say you better check it out and make sure what you have is not something else before something goes seriously haywire with your loads.

 

[Lazer]

Thanks had the size wrong on tiny pic
Here's what I'm trying to improve on, 5 shot groups prone w front and rear bag .426 average. Yes I'm pulling the trigger inside the center 3/8 circle, just wondered from original post if someone could help. I don't believe the. 69 smk is the correct bullet for my 8 twist. Not hunting, goal is to be small as possible.

 

[Snuggie]

rcw3, yes sir, N-140 is a stick powder. I meant that it is a smaller stick than the 8208XBR or Varget. Thanks for catching that!!

 

[boltman223]

Laser have you tried cci primers yet?

 

[searcher]

Lazer; What rifle are you shooting those groups with? scope? Were you shooting with wind flags, dead-calm conditions? I only ask, as the lower left is really nice and they don't usually go into a nice group on their own like that. That may be representative of how the others may have looked without wind. If that be the case, you are realistically trying to improve on a scale of less than 2/10ths of an inch. You may be able to achieve that by merely tweaking your existing load.

 

[Lazer]

As I said kreiger 223 min spec chamber , manners steel bedded, bolt tighting, true action, bedded rail and rings, (stress free) night force 22 power, timmney trigger. Badger rail and rings. Conditions dead calm, all variables are removed except load. Let's assume for fucks sake that the trigger was pulled inside the 3/8 circle every time. Let's also assume the load is the only variable left. And yes I am only trying to improve 1/10 of an inch or .100 thousands that would put me in the low .300s whitch was my goal in the original post. And yes when you talk about precision you will find glory groups in the 200s that will go in on their own like that but when you talk about consistent precision, you will find it's tough to get strait answers on the internet. That's why I came to the site accurate shooter, to get help!

 

[boltman223]

I didn't see if you have tried different primers or not. After seeing the above groups I would do that next. When I was doing my initial load work up I tried rem 7 1/2's and cci's. Once I started using the cci's those flyers went away. Try anything different federal's, cci's, wsr's.

 

[searcher]

Aside from trying different primers as suggested by Boltman223, I'd also try depth adjustments and at leaast try a reduced load jambed about .010", working back up to where you are, watching for pressure signs.

What really grabbed my attention from your equipment list was the Manners stock with what I assume is an aluminum CNC machined bedding block. I've not owned one of the manners stocks but have had several Remington and other aluminum bedding systems and they are not, (in my limited prior experience) conducive to the type of accuracy you are attempting to attain without at least a skim bed of bedding compound in all contact points except the front of the bedding lug. CNC is great but not absolutely perfect. The bedding will help to alleviate the stresses you place on the action when you torque it into the stock. It can help a LOT. Cost to do yourself is less than a box of bullets. Watch Youtube

 

[Rtheurer]

Thanks searcher for all the info! Russ, I tried to post some picks it will help out to show where I'm at and what I expect. I can't get the pictures on here from my I phone could someone give me a quick rundown. I don't have any problems posting on other sites? It says error or to big or something.
Thanks lazer
Russ , it's 5 shots on 6 targets on one sheet of paper consecutive, that I am trying to improve on, this is prone w a front and rear bag. Any help posting Picts will be appreiciated !

Looking at your targets looks like your shooting pretty good shooting from a front and rear bag and not a full on Mechanical rest. That next step into the .2's is substantially harder to obtain as alot of point blank Bench guys can atest too. Lazer thanks for clarifing your intent I had thought you wanted to shoot 30 rounds into one small.300 group. I see know that you are trying to Agg. .300 or less with 5 shot groups which makes sense to me now. Thank you.
So the next question I may have to ask some of the big dogs here is are you at the limit of your supporting equipment? Front and rear rest. Wide forend, TO make the gun track perfectly front to back and no side to side movment, Ect ect. And the one on that got me just last week in some real hot weather Barrel heat and the mirage comming off the barrel that ruined several great groups i had going. No wind and the heat off the barrel was killing me. Forgot my Mirage band at the the house! Damn.
So going back to your statment "Let's assume for fucks sake that the trigger was pulled inside the 3/8 circle every time." and my Barrel mirage issue last week. I was amming at the precise spot but the mirage made the target look higher than it actually was. which oddly enough created two seperate groups.
Just some food for thought? Every little bit helps. Might be something simple. OR NOT as my luck ussually is.

I had to Skim bed a V block one time to get it to shoot well. Just another variable in your quest.. Sorry.
Russ T
Cute lil rifle by the way.