New guy question about dies

[Maggiesdraws]

Okay, I'm new to reloading centerfire. I've finally made my mind up about the press I'll use so that's settled. Now I've started loking at dies and that seems to be a little more confusing. Of all the die manufacturers out there, could you share with me why you are using the one you are. Any help in helping me understand why one die is preferred over another would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[3dogs]

Is this a factory or custom gun? What cal?
Jim

 

[Maggiesdraws]

Because I'm at the very front end of trying this longer range shooting out, my gun is a store bought Remington 700 in 308 caliber. I figured that if it's something that I take to I have the option at some point to change out the barrel, stock and trigger. Having said that, I still would like to load to get the most out of what I have to shoot.

 

[Chappy]

Redding competition set with FL bushing die and micrometer seater would serve you well.

 

[savageshooter86]

Forester die set would not be a bad place to start

 

[Barlow]

I like Forster dies, although I did just buy a set of Hornady's cause I've heard good reports on them. Barlow

 

[jonbearman]

In my opinion since you are starting out go with the forster dies as the redding are very expensive and since it is a factory chamber the redding bushing dies could be a pain in the neck due to your factory chamber which more than likely has a looser neck than what competition shooters use. Keep it simple till you get proficient at reloading and ask questions as much as you need even if you feel the question is silly. It is important to read and reread manuals to further your education on the finer aspects of reloading. If you don't have it get the 49th edition of lymans reloading manual as it has a great section on reloading.

 

[CatShooter]

It is important to read and reread manuals to further your education on the finer aspects of reloading. If you don't have it get the 49th edition of lymans reloading manual as it has a great section on reloading.

The 49th edition of the Lyman manual advises against annealing, says you should only load cases that you bought new, and never reload cases that were fired in someone else's gun, and that you can only get 2 or 3 loads from a belted case...

... that is not a good loading manual in my opinion. The person in charge of their manual cannot answer simple questions on reloading.

Better choices would be the Sierrra, Nosler, and Speer (get all of them).

 

[amlevin]

The one thing I've learned about dies and their purchase is to buy the best set of dies you think you will ever need ----------- first. Starting out with inexpensive and "working up" means that you will end up paying a whole lot more in the long run.


As for Forster dies? Yes, good dies. Put one side by side with a Redding and the clear winner is the Redding for quality and finish.

A competition Die set has everything one needs. Bushing neck sizing, a body die if you need to set back shoulders, and a super quality seating die. A precision die set and nothing "rattles" in it.

 

[CatShooter]

In my opinion since you are starting out go with the forster dies as the redding are very expensive and since it is a factory chamber the redding bushing dies could be a pain in the neck due to your factory chamber which more than likely has a looser neck than what competition shooters use.

I use Redding competition dies on both factory and competition chambers and they work fine on all of them.

Buying low end dies to start off is a total waste of money... look at what the going price of used dies are on ebay - nothing!!

 

[Barlow]

Reloading dies are a crapshoot. They can all make bad ones. Seems like Redding has more negatives on this forum than others. I have some Redding dies that are fine, I've had some that I sent back. JMO Barlow

 

[bigedp51]

Maggiesdraws

Buy a Forster full length die and their competition seating die.

Below on the left is a standard RCBS expander button and spindle, on the right is the Forster unit. The Forster spindle has the expander mounted high on the spindle and the expander button enters the case neck while the case neck is inside the neck of the die. The thick rubber washer under the locknut allows the expander button to float and self center while the case is still centered in the neck of the die and thus reduce runout.

You don't need the most costly dies with a standard off the shelf rifle, "BUT" a good runout and neck thickness gauges will help your reloading and finding and fixing runout problems.

When full length resizing the case is supported by the bolt face in the rear and by the bullet in the throat of the chamber. This minimizes the influence the case has on bullet alignment with the bore and improves accuracy.

The Rifleman's Journal
by Germán A. Salazar

Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing
The question of the month comes from John C. in Australia. http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html

A case that is only neck sized depends on the case body itself - or at least that's the theory - to center the bullet. In reality, the case is banana shaped to a greater or lesser degree, but always curved and it is highly unlikely that it will actually put the bullet into perfect, straight alignment in the throat. The fully resized neck and a bit of clearance in the throat mean that the bullet is likely pointed off center to some degree, following the curvature of the case.

A case that is full-length sized, but only partially neck sized, which is the condition you describe, depends on the unsized portion of the neck to center the bullet. The resized case body is still banana shaped, but has been sufficiently reduced in diameter at the shoulder to keep the curvature from wedging the case within the chamber. Now, we get to the unsized portion of the neck. There is approximately 0.001" diametrical clearance to the chamber neck on the unsized portion just from normal brass springiness. There is probably no more than 0.0005" diametrical clearance between the bullet and the throat and in many cases as little as 0.0002" clearance. In other words, there is one-half to one-fifth the clearance in the throat that there is in the unsized portion of the neck. Which is doing the alignment? If that were all, we could say there's no harm done by the partial neck sizing, but that isn't the whole story. Unless the bullet is perfectly concentric to the neck, there exists the possibility that the bullet's alignment in the throat is being influenced by the neck's eccentricity in relation to the bullet. If you're relying on two points to align the whole, those two points had better be perfectly concentric. The longer the unsized portion of the neck is, the greater likelihood of the neck inducing a misalignment in the throat due to imperfect neck to bullet concentricity.


Now the last scenario, a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway.

In conclusion, I believe that allowing the bullet to find a relatively stress-free alignment in the throat by full length sizing (including the neck) and turning necks to enhance concentricity gives the bullet the best probability of a well-aligned start into the rifling. Additionally, I place a high value on easy bolt operation and true full length sizing helps that quite a bit. I favor easy bolt operation as a prone shooter because I keep the rifle in my shoulder for the entire string and struggling with the bolt not only can shift the buttplate (always with adverse consequences) but it is also a distraction from my attention to mirage and wind flags which ideally occupies all of the non-aiming time.

P.S. DO NOT believe anything CatShooter tells you, CatShooter is wanted by the SPCA for "Cruelty to Animals". (he is also a very bad actor) :

 

[SS427]

Redding FL type S sizing dies is what I have settled on, short of custom dies for BR rifles.

Get an arbor press and use Wilson seating dies. Best option. (Redding competition seater is a good but expensive option as well if you don't want to use an arbor press.)

You need a runout tool to confirm you have good dies though. Once you confirm that, you don't really need the runout tool much.

Even a basic reloader will benefit from this combination, at least in my opinion. This will eliminate almost all runout issues.

You might not shoot smaller groups, but at least you know your dies are good and runout isn't an issue.

 

[amlevin]

You might not shoot smaller groups, but at least you know your dies are good and runout isn't an issue.

It's all about "eliminating excuses" 8)

Sooner or later it will get down to the shooter.

 

[CatShooter]

You might not shoot smaller groups, but at least you know your dies are good and runout isn't an issue.

It's all about "eliminating excuses" 8)

Sooner or later it will get down to the shooter.

It is NEVER the shooter - it is always the,"one more thing to buy" so the shooter can do their part...

... or it is the endless called fliers

 

[Sniper338]

If i reccommended dies to a newbie i would also say buy the best the first time around... which i didnt do... and wish i would have known better years and years ago... i use a reddings type competition full length sizer with a neck bushing to size brass... then a wilson chamber micrometer seating die with an arbor press... im just now getting it all in little by little but have been very happy switching over to this combo. I use the redding dies with an rcbs rock chucker to deprime and size... then the 21st century arbor press to seat bullets with the wilson dies... i feel like im kicking out some even gooder ammo now... lots of tools for case prep too... sinclairs has most of what you will need... ask before you buy to get a yay or nay... it will save tons of money...

 

[Maggiesdraws]

Folks thanks for the info, some good stuff and I appreciate it.

Another question, what do you folks think about the Forster case trimmer and all the parts that go with it for champhering and turning the neck?

 

[amlevin]

Folks thanks for the info, some good stuff and I appreciate it.

Another question, what do you folks think about the Forster case trimmer and all the parts that go with it for champhering and turning the neck?

I use an RCBS trimmer with 3-Way cutter head that trims, chamfers, and de-burrs all in a single pass. That's what I think of he Forster Case trimmer.

For neck turning there are several other tools that are far better. K&M, Century 21, and Sinclair are a few that come to mind. I've been using the Forster neck turning tool for several years and when I have to turn necks again it will be replaced with one of the three I mentioned.

 

[boltgunluvr]

To the original poster.....One does not have to spend a fortune on equipment. Keep as much green in your pocket as possible and have fun. What brand bullets???

 

[LHSmith]

If it's for a factory gun, any make of die will produce good ammo ....IF ...you find the one that matches YOUR chamber the best. The catch 22 is it's a crap shoot which one will fit the best, and you just can't buy dies on trial to see how they fit . Also, for factory guns think K.I.S.S.....you do NOT need micrometer adjustment......for that much money buy 3 brands of standard dies, keep the one that sizes best and sell the others.