New .25 Creedmoor build for F-Open UPDATE

[ronsatspokane]

I've dumped a lot of money down barrels that looked beautiful on the inside in the past. Only to give up, order a cheap prefit and have the cheap barrel back to shooting 1/4 MOA. I'm fighting one now but it is a Remington 700 Varmint that I had low expectations for from the start (due to whose barrel it was). Even that barrel looks good on the inside. I've shot Savage barrels that looked like the lands were cut with a chisel in the middle ages and had chatter marks all over the place yet they shot lights out. I'm at a loss to say what makes one barrel good and another not worth a shite. Maybe metal blend, maybe wandering gun drill bit or cutter used to cut the lands. It's a mystery to me.

 

[ShootDots]

I've dumped a lot of money down barrels that looked beautiful on the inside in the past. Only to give up, order a cheap prefit and have the cheap barrel back to shooting 1/4 MOA. I'm fighting one now but it is a Remington 700 Varmint that I had low expectations for from the start (due to whose barrel it was). Even that barrel looks good on the inside. I've shot Savage barrels that looked like the lands were cut with a chisel in the middle ages and had chatter marks all over the place yet they shot lights out. I'm at a loss to say what makes one barrel good and another not worth a shite. Maybe metal blend, maybe wandering gun drill bit or cutter used to cut the lands. It's a mystery to me.

I understand! Many, many, many moons ago, I bought a Remington 700 LTR (Light Tactical Rifle). It was in .308. With Berger 185 VLDs at 200 yards, I was able to stay 1/2" or less about 85% of the time! From time to time it would shoot a "slightly" enlarged hole, maybe 50cal size. What "allowed" that one to shoot like that and a beautiful custom barrel shoot like garbage is beyond me too my friend!

 

[taylorw]

As I age, recoil becomes less tolerable for me. I can handle it, however, I don't like it one bit any longer. So, I decided to build a 25 Creedmoor. I contacted Greg Young from Southern Precision Rifles, more affectionately known as "Bugholes" to me, about a build. Greg had a McMillan "Kestros" on hand, which is the only stock I use for F-Open. I ordered a Defiance "Deviant" action, and a Bartlein 4 groove "Gain Twist" barrel from 8 down to 7.5 to handle the new Berger 135gr. LR Hybrid bullet. Darin Minnear at Southern, told me about a SID HE "Br EVO" trigger. The trigger breaks VERY cleanly and "crisply" at 2 ounces. By the way, Darin did the barrel work on the rifle. He does excellent work! I picked up the rifle yesterday (6-30-26) and was really impressed at the quality of the build! Greg and Southern Precision did an excellent job. I topped it off with a March High Master 10-60 with the 3/32 dot. I understand the value of one of those crosshairs with hash marks and numbers etc.. But I like "clean" reticles that are not "busy".

I have not shot it yet, however, I have a bunch of rounds loaded with both the Sierra 131 as well as the Berger 135. What was interesting was that finding the lands with BOTH bullets proved to be exactly the same. However, getting them to their "position" off the lands was almost a 60thou difference! I am going to use BOTH H4350 and N555 to see which shoots better. Honestly, I am hoping N555 does, as it seems to burn CONSIDERABLY "cooler" than H4350. Past experience with me says that H4350 is one of the finest powders there is! However, it will eat your barrel up like candy! I bought Peterson LR brass. The main reason I did this was because Peterson makes 22 Creedmoor brass and they developed a "head" that is "harder / tougher" than their other brass. They decided to extend this technology over to include the 25 Creedmoor brass. This should account for some good longevity in the brass. I have some Alpha Munitions 6 Creedmoor brass that I made into 25 Creedmoor for comparison's sake.

Hopefully, some time this week I will get to the range and "break-in" the barrel and shoot some loads. I know, I know, "breaking in a barrel" is a thing of the past. However, this old fart don't break habits very easily. Having said that, it will be a "modified" break in. One round, clean to the bone, two rounds, clean to the bone, two more round, clean to the bone, then that will be it. However, changing from one powder to the next, I will also scrub to the bone. Not that that will make a difference, but it will give the barrel a chance to cool and not allow for too much hard carbon to build up as the barrel finishes it's breaking in. At any rate as this project progresses, I will bring updates to let y'all know how it is coming along. NOTE: on the 14th of July, I will be in surgery that will put me out of commission for about 2 months. Please pray and after I get back to the range, I will get more info on the progression of this project. Thanks Guys..

Sorry it’s giving you a fit. Im sure you’ve already checked but I had a barrel that shot ok for the first 100 rounds or so but then went from 1/2” to 3” groups at 100yds. I couldn’t figure it out until I noticed how much I needed to chase the lands. The barrel steel was believed to be too soft and was replaced. The new barrel fixed the issue.

 

[ShootDots]

Sorry it’s giving you a fit. Im sure you’ve already checked but I had a barrel that shot ok for the first 100 rounds or so but then went from 1/2” to 3” groups at 100yds. I couldn’t figure it out until I noticed how much I needed to chase the lands. The barrel steel was believed to be too soft and was replaced. The new barrel fixed the issue.

This case is a bit different. I have right at 100 rounds on the bore. The lands have only moved 1 thou..

 

[wasskeet]

I can identify with your pain as I had a Bart 400BB in 25 Creed that would shoot 3/4 MOA on average with a variety of loads. It was chambered by a very well known GS. Put plenty rounds down it thinking it maybe needed getting beyond speeding up a ways? Anyway, with N555 it would absolutely flatline on a Garmin at about 2880 with 135's. Never was accurate though. I sold it to a gent with full disclosure and went 25x47 via a well-known GS and it was a flop in a different way. Not to be a quitter, I now have another 25x47 in Bartlein chambered by Greg @ GT Accuracy and it is doing very well by my standards.

 

[ShootDots]

I can identify with your pain as I had a Bart 400BB in 25 Creed that would shoot 3/4 MOA on average with a variety of loads. It was chambered by a very well known GS. Put plenty rounds down it thinking it maybe needed getting beyond speeding up a ways? Anyway, with N555 it would absolutely flatline on a Garmin at about 2880 with 135's. Never was accurate though. I sold it to a gent with full disclosure and went 25x47 via a well-known GS and it was a flop in a different way. Not to be a quitter, I now have another 25x47 in Bartlein chambered by Greg @ GT Accuracy and it is doing very well by my standards.

I hate, loathe and despise it when you pay good, hard earned money for something and it doesn't work the way it should! Oh well... Life is too short to pi** and moan about something rectifiable. Which getting this "rectified" is top priority! Good luck on your new project!

 

[Matt_3479]

I hope you get this figured out. I’ll be curious what bartlein says if you send it them. I have a 7 twist 25 creed that shoots real well at 2880-2920 range. The upper side of that node is on the warm side for my rifle and bolt lift is a smidge heavier at the 2920 fps mark.

I also have a 25x47 that has proven to be very consistent, a little more forgiving, and easier to stay in tune then my 25 creed. That said my x47 was chambered by my gunsmith I fully trust and my 25 creed was chambered by a gunsmith I wouldn’t use again.

Both cartridges are great cartridges

 

[wasskeet]

Good luck on your new project!

Likewise for you!

 

[ShootDots]

I hope you get this figured out. I’ll be curious what bartlein says if you send it them. I have a 7 twist 25 creed that shoots real well at 2880-2920 range. The upper side of that node is on the warm side for my rifle and bolt lift is a smidge heavier at the 2920 fps mark.

I also have a 25x47 that has proven to be very consistent, a little more forgiving, and easier to stay in tune then my 25 creed. That said my x47 was chambered by my gunsmith I fully trust and my 25 creed was chambered by a gunsmith I wouldn’t use again.

Both cartridges are great cartridges

Like I said in an earlier post on this thread: "When things don't work out as anticipated, you can either get mad and frustrated OR you can get up and do whatever it takes to make it right.".. I have a Krieger on order thru Southern Precision.

 

[Hoekight]

I hope you get it figured out. I’m sure
You will. I stuck my toes in the 25 cal sand a few months ago with a 25-08ai. I almost went the creedmoor route but decided to spec a reamer. I shoot it for f open with a 7.5 twist barrel, 135 Bergers and 555 it’s the most accurate thing I own. Ran it to 3100 with no pressure but backed up to 2880 and it is super happy there. Prayers for you for a successful surgery and a speedy recovery.
Blessings.
Dwayne

 

[Bustercluck]

I had similar issues with mine when the barrel was new too. The action is a donor from a rem700ltr with a ks arms 7.5 twist, 6 groove barrel bolted to an mdt acc chassis.

I was getting lots of vertical and horizontal stringing with 135 bergers. I changed the scope and retorqued everything else and removed my muzzle brake. My first batch of loads was with some old lapua 6.5 creed brass I had sitting on the bench with campro primers. I switched up to alpha brass and small br-4 primers and tried seating depth changes with h4350 and gave every powder I had in my cupboard a go. Somewhere along the journey it started shooting good groups with one flyer out of every 5 shot group, 4 shots touching with one outside. I was only getting 2780fps with 40.5 grains of h4350 and 135s. At this point in time I was starting to think it was me so I brought it to a 900m f-class match and shot it off of a fixed bipod and squeeze bag. My first score was a 20 shot string with 97/100 and I can say with some certainty it would’ve been 98 or 99, but I usually shoot 223 and my first couple wind calls were off. My next couple strings weren’t as good, but still respectable.

This was last year and ever since I’ve only been shooting positional steel which has been good for me. I’m now shooting 40 grains of h4350 with 134eldm at magazine length(with a big jump) and it’s sped up to about 2850. I shot it at a fundraiser a couple weekends ago on some fairly big steel targets, but I made 3/3 shots at 600,700,800,900 metres and 2/3 at 1000metres dropping my last shot. I should be headed out this afternoon and I’ll try and put some rounds on paper at 100 yards to see how it performs.

I’m not sure what changed, but it shoots now. I probably spent more than a barrel worth of components getting here though.

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

Dots, Sir, I hope you have a great outcome today for your surgery.

 

[ShootDots]

Dots, Sir, I hope you have a great outcome today for your surgery.

i just made it home! doing fine! Thank You

 

[FrankG]

i just made it home! doing fine! Thank You

I just seen this thread! First off glad you're doing great with the doc stuff!

So, if you reached out to the gunsmith which whoever does the fitting for you if you don't do your own work... that is the first place to start when you have issues.

Then reach out to the manufacturer. Doesn't matter if it's a barrel issue, scope issue, stock or action etc...

As far as I know unless you talked to one of the other guys here, we haven't heard anything about this till now on this forum. I haven't read every post as it's already on 3 pages.

You might have a barrel issue, and you might not.

Three things more than anything else need to work together more than anything else. Bullet, powder, barrel. Just because it's not shooting doesn't mean it's a barrel issue, or bullet issue or powder issue. It can be the combination of two or all three of these things and yes, it can be one single issue like the barrel or the bullet or powder. Load and tune etc....

So if you would please... email us directly at info@bartleinbarrels.com

Questions we have and it would help us to know when we get the barrel sent to us.... besides when you purchased the barrel and if you know the s/n.

Load details.

Only one bullet been tried or have different bullets and or different lots have been tried.

Powder and powder charge.

How does it clean? Does it clean easy or are you getting a lot of fouling out of it? Not just copper fouling but powder/carbon fouling as well?

How are you cleaning it and how often and with what? I did see in one post that you are using Thorro Clean. Be careful with abrasive cleaners. Depending on what and how it's used they can cause more harm than good at times. You can damage the rifling and as well... end up polishing the bore too much which will lead to a fouling issue. Once this happens your lucky if you have a 50/50 chance of saving the barrel.

If I recall correctly unless it's been changed... Thorro Clean has Iosso bore paste mixed in with it.

So, throw us a email with any and all details you can please. Also, we would like to see the barrel and inspect it as well to see if we can possibly figure out what is going on to help you.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[FrankG]

This isn't meant as a jab at ShootDots because he is the thread starter and he's having a problem or anything like that.

I'll say it here and I'll say it again and I don't know how many times I've said it and showed pictures of damage along with how much wasn't taken out of a bore of a barrel with using an abrasive type cleaner.

I wish the places that come up with the next magical barrel bore cleaner would stand behind they're product and warranty a barrel for a customer when the barrel gets damaged. There is another brand new type of bore paste type cleaner and when we heard what's in it... all we could do was cringe.

Yes sometimes it's how the stuff is being used.

I won't name the ammo makers but I know of two places.... if for any reason one of the ammo makers that is testing ammo in ammunition test barrel feel the need to use an abrasive type cleaner... only one person is allowed to make that decision and do the cleaning. The other ammo maker one of the lab guys about a month ago posted about this on another forum and he said in all of the years he has been there...he's only seen an abrasive type cleaner used like seven times (or a few times and I don't remember offhand without looking up the thread) and again.... it's one person that's allowed to use it to clean a barrel.

The point I'm trying to make here to anyone that reads this. Be careful with what your doing and how your doing it.

There is a discussion on another forum and the shooter is trying to get rid of a carbon ring build up out of the barrel. He's resorted to using Thorroclean and a brush chucked onto a drill. Without even seeing it... high probability that barrel is junk.

 

[gmr4]

This isn't meant as a jab at ShootDots because he is the thread starter and he's having a problem or anything like that.

I'll say it here and I'll say it again and I don't know how many times I've said it and showed pictures of damage along with how much wasn't taken out of a bore of a barrel with using an abrasive type cleaner.

I wish the places that come up with the next magical barrel bore cleaner would stand behind they're product and warranty a barrel for a customer when the barrel gets damaged. There is another brand new type of bore paste type cleaner and when we heard what's in it... all we could do was cringe.

Yes sometimes it's how the stuff is being used.

I won't name the ammo makers but I know of two places.... if for any reason one of the ammo makers that is testing ammo in ammunition test barrel feel the need to use an abrasive type cleaner... only one person is allowed to make that decision and do the cleaning. The other ammo maker one of the lab guys about a month ago posted about this on another forum and he said in all of the years he has been there...he's only seen an abrasive type cleaner used like seven times (or a few times and I don't remember offhand without looking up the thread) and again.... it's one person that's allowed to use it to clean a barrel.

The point I'm trying to make here to anyone that reads this. Be careful with what your doing and how your doing it.

There is a discussion on another forum and the shooter is trying to get rid of a carbon ring build up out of the barrel. He's resorted to using Thorroclean and a brush chucked onto a drill. Without even seeing it... high probability that barrel is junk.

HEAR this! Shoot dots is a long established high master F Open competitor and highly competent reloader. Very competent tester and problem solver.

 

[FrankG]

HEAR this! Shoot dots is a long established high master F Open competitor and highly competent reloader. Very competent tester and problem solver.

I'm not saying anything for or against him etc....

I bringing up the use of abrasives to everyone and to be careful with them.

All of us make mistakes as well. Ask Mark here. Mark currently holds two or three world records in BR. He will tell you honestly he wrecked one of his barrels several years back using Tony Boyers method of cleaning with Iosso bore paste. Cleaned it one time and the accuracy was gone. Mark never cleaned his barrels with his method after that.

I won't name names but another top BR shooter who has made the world team as well... didn't wreck one and not two but three barrels. First we got blamed for bad steel then the gunsmith got blamed for bad gunsmithing. Gunsmith caught him at a match wrecking the last barrel. Turned out he was using a cordless drill on a short cleaning rod with a brush etc... to try and get the carbon ring out. Totally wiped out the throats on every single one of them.

Another customer.... didn't wreck one but wrecked three barrels in 6 months. He used witch's brew and a brush in every single one of them and I told him to stop doing it the first time! Argued with me that it was in a liquid form and not a paste. I said... doesn't matter it's an abrasive in conjunction with a brush. His last barrel was a 6.5mm that he wrecked. Only 110 rounds on it and the gouges on the lands where already starting to show and he removed a full .001" out of the bore of the barrel. This same guy called a bullet maker a few months later and complained they're bullets where bad as they were blowing up. I'll guarantee you he wrecked another barrel and damaged the rifling and that was the cause to make the bullets blow up. Bullet maker and I had a long talk on the phone about it. The bullets the shooter returned to the bullet maker... the bullet maker ran them thru an ammunition accuracy test barrel and not a single failure out to a 1k yards.

Here is a latest and greatest.... customer called up and said the rifle doesn't shoot. We said send the whole rifle in. Came in yesterday. Just looked at and guess what? Who ever did the barrel install didn't cut and crown the muzzle at all.

Later, Frank

 

[Tangent]

Never underestimate people. If it's possible to do something in the wrong way someone will find it. Most learn from their mistake, some just keep repeating them. The really smart people learn from other people's mistakes...

 

[std7mag]

I remember when the 131gr bullets were still fresh.

A few local shooters decided to build 25 caliber rifles for them specifically.
They said they did good for F-Open (600 yards).
But when they tried to shoot short range benchrest the groups opened up on them.

It's almost like they need some distance to settle down.

Perhaps try some 500+ yard groups and see what happens?

 

[ShootDots]

I remember when the 131gr bullets were still fresh.

A few local shooters decided to build 25 caliber rifles for them specifically.
They said they did good for F-Open (600 yards).
But when they tried to shoot short range benchrest the groups opened up on them.

It's almost like they need some distance to settle down.

Perhaps try some 500+ yard groups and see what happens?

That would not happen in this case. These were not "symmetrical" by any stretch of the imagination. It was not like a "small group that was large". You would get one near the target dot, then one 2.5" straight up and a third near the first shot, then one 3" directly opposite of the other 2. They would not get better with distance.