Needing Opinions on ES

[Erik Cortina]

If you shoot with the magneto speed attached it will influence your groups because the magneto speed acts like a tuner, and if it moves even slightly between shots, it will affect groups even more.

 

[timeout]

If you shoot with the magneto speed attached it will influence your groups because the magneto speed acts like a tuner, and if it moves even slightly between shots, it will affect groups even more.

I do very little competitive shooting. That being said, I have always liked a load that shoots small groups and winds up where I aim. I recently purchased a magneto speed. My main objective is to obtain data for running ballistics on a computer program to get me in the ballpark at various distances, with any number of calibers and loads. I intend to test for group size without the magneto speed attached, for just the reason you have stated. I test for groups at 300 yards. The downside I see to my proposed method will be that if I get a so called "flyer" in the group, I won't know if it could have been caused by a lower than normal velocity round. There does not at this time, seem to be perfect system. I really got disgusted though this fall, with the sun low in the sky, my chrono failing to register correctly. That wastes a lot of time and components/barrel life.

 

[ShootDots]

If you shoot with the magneto speed attached it will influence your groups because the magneto speed acts like a tuner, and if it moves even slightly between shots, it will affect groups even more.

I do very little competitive shooting. That being said, I have always liked a load that shoots small groups and winds up where I aim. I recently purchased a magneto speed. My main objective is to obtain data for running ballistics on a computer program to get me in the ballpark at various distances, with any number of calibers and loads. I intend to test for group size without the magneto speed attached, for just the reason you have stated. I test for groups at 300 yards. s a lot of time and cThe downside I see to my proposed method will be that if I get a so called "flyer" in the group, I won't know if it could have been caused by a lower than normal velocity round. There does not at this time, seem to be perfect system. I really got disgusted though this fall, with the sun low in the sky, my chrono failing to register correctly. That wasteomponents/barrel life.

Timeout, I have a PACT Professional chronograph. Personally I don't like it. When the sun is low in the mornings on a bright day, there are always speeds that are outside of the group norm. Now they could be registered correctly OR chronograph error. I do shoot competitively and when those same rounds end up in the 10 ring or "X" ring, I charge it to chronograph error. I do A LOT of shooting and I chrono most everything.. Over the course of time, you begin to "learn" your chronograph and when those "abnormal" readings are true or false. If I shoot 50 rounds in a morning and 4-6 of them are "out there" and my groups are tight and my scores with that load are good, I pass them off as chrono error. I don't know if there is ANY chrono that can rid itself of BRIGHT sunshine pouring down under the skyscreens...

 

[savageshooter86]

Erik I chronoed this with Magneto after I had worked up a "match" load and tested it at 350 yards. Then strapped it on to see what I was getting velocity wise as an idea for ES and MV so I could use my app to get me very close with first sighters at 1000 and 600 yard matches as to not waste ammo

My friend shot with it attached yesterday at 350yds and that was his best 10 shot group of the day(out of 40 shots) shooting at a 300 yard Fclass target center. I thought that was interesting

 

[Erik Cortina]

That's because the magneto speed acted as a tuner so it made groups smaller. It could have went and made them bigger just as well.

Ben, if you use a chronograph that you can pick and choose which shots you like, what's the purpose of having one? Now I see how you can get such low ES on your loads.

It is impossible to "learn" a chronograph, if it's not reliable, get one that is. I use an Oehler 35, no "learning" necessary with it.

PVM-21 is another reliable chronograph.

I used a Pact Professional for a while, it took all of my power not to shoot it. It was unreliable and would only read when IT wanted to, not when I wanted it to.

 

[ShootDots]

Erik, there is a guy that shoots where I shoot (PSC in Friendswood) who has an Oehler 35 who has the same complaint(s) I do.. He states that on bright sunny days in the morning, when the sun's angle is under the skyscreens, he gets errors and or "outlandish" readings too>>>>otherwise I would have bought one by now...

 

[nmjwolf]

There appears to be one sample that is not part of your normal distribution:

 

[jcampbellsmith]

There appears to be one sample that is not part of your normal distribution:

Thanks, so of the five cherries picked, four were duds. Regards JCS

 

[normmatzen]

BOYD-----YES!

Erik -------NO!
1. the weight of the Bayo is way less than a tuner.

2. My friend in Oz shoots in competition with it on.

3. I have found that accuracy, i.e. tune, is not
changed by the addition of the Bayo. The
change in impact point is repeatable and
is caused by the inductive kick caused by
the metal mass ( bullet) passing the inductors
in the BAYO similar to a tiny puff of wind.

 

[Erik Cortina]

BOYD-----YES!

Erik -------NO!
1. the weight of the Bayo is way less than a tuner.

2. My friend in Oz shoots in competition with it on.

3. I have found that accuracy, i.e. tune, is not
changed by the addition of the Bayo. The
change in impact point is repeatable and
is caused by the inductive kick caused by
the metal mass ( bullet) passing the inductors
in the BAYO similar to a tiny puff of wind.

So, how much weight does it take to cause a change in accuracy?

Lots of guys shoot competition with tuners on.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Been shooting over the Magnetospeed to get some data. BUT I am getting something strange and not sure what might be causing this to happen. In 5 shot groups I am getting 1 strange outlier shot that is making my ES bigger. I weigh all charges to 0.02 gr and all brass have same # of firings. OAL is measured on each round to the ogive. Bullets were sorted by bearing surface. Any helpful hints on what may be causing this??...

Andrew has achieved some really good results, but to date, no-one has shed much light on what can be done to improve the SD of his loads. From the calculations above, the SD is 12.3. I've certainly been told in the past that a SD of less than 10 was what I should be shooting for.

There's lots of options, but what's folks' recommendation on the one thing to do to get that SD below 10?

Thanks

JCS

 

[rox]

It is impossible to "learn" a chronograph, if it's not reliable, get one that is. I use an Oehler 35, no "learning" necessary with it.

The Oehler 35 is many good things, but I wouldn't say that it is necessarily more reliable than other chronos. It still gets 'bad reads', but the difference is, since it's actually 2 chronos in one, it *tells* you when it makes a bad reading so you can ignore that reading 'scientifically' rather than 'on a hunch'.

Here's a sequence of readings from a 35. Two readings show a high error between the first and second channel. There will always be some error, especially since the 'check' channel (M2) has half the distance between the screens of the main channel (M1). Of course, the check channel is just as likely as the main channel to make a bad read.

M1	M2	Err
2975	2978	3
2960	2964	4
2998	2973	25
2979	2958	21
2966	2967	1
2968	2965	3
2976	2972	4
2960	2958	2
2947	2943	4

 

[jlow]

Most of what you say is true but you forgot one thing and that is an Oehler 35 equipped with a 4’ rail is indeed much more accurate than say the Master Chrony or for that matter an Oehler 35 equipped with a 2’ rail. It’s the physics which makes it more accurate.

 

[rox]

Most of what you say is true but you forgot one thing

Not forgotten at all. It's a phenomenally accurate instrument, but I was responding to a comment about its reliability. Other aspects were summed-up with the words that it is 'many good things'.

..

 

[savageshooter86]

so if I did calculations correct, my two seating depths varied slightly with the 9 chrony shot readings I have for each

3.180"
ES-25
SD-9.288
AVG-2899.44

3.205"
ES-31
SD-11.039
AVG-2901.11


Benjamin-set up an Oehler 35 with 4ft rail at 10ft. The Magnetospeed showed an avg if 12 fps difference(higher) than the O35

 

[Ray Gross]

........

There's lots of options, but what's folks' recommendation on the one thing to do to get that SD below 10?

Thanks

JCS

Try different primer lots.

Secondarily, you may consider inspecting your firing pin assembly to make sure it is operating free and consistently.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Hi

I agree with one calculation - 3.205 seating
Average Std Dev Variance
2886 2901.111111 11.03907202 121.8611111
2886
2896
2896
2901
2908
2908
2912
2917

What data set did you use for the other calculation?

Regards

JCS

 

[savageshooter86]

I did not include the 3.180" group that had the 2866

Guess I can switch to Fed 210 our try Palma brass

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Andrew

3.180 Average Std Dev Variance
2885 2899.444444 9.288583195 86.27777778
2888
2893
2896
2903
2905
2905
2910
2910

Thanks

JCS