Need some voices of experience, 30-06 vs. 30-06 AI

[nakneker]

Old thread but ….

I have had a three cartridges based on the 06 case, 6.5-06AI, 280AI and 338-06AI. Every one of them were worthwhile, I used Lapua brass. The 6.5-06AI and 280AI are still in use sold off to a couple friends of mine who guide, you would have a hard time getting them out of their hands. The 338-06AI was mine for a short time and my cousin had to have it, he passed last year and the rifle was lost to family squabbles, it’s a shame. I’m building a copy of it as we speak. I like the fact the brass doesn’t stretch much, accuracy has been great. The gain in velocity and having something different made it worth the effort for me. Velocity gains varied between the three, the gain wasn’t eye popping but still better than the standard case. I like the 06 improved case whatever caliber a guy decides to try., I’d like to try the 30 caliber version someday.

 

[Mulligan]

Old thread but ….

I have had a three cartridges based on the 06 case, 6.5-06AI, 280AI and 338-06AI. Every one of them were worthwhile, I used Lapua brass. The 6.5-06AI and 280AI are still in use sold off to a couple friends of mine who guide, you would have a hard time getting them out of their hands. The 338-06AI was mine for a short time and my cousin had to have it, he passed last year and the rifle was lost to family squabbles, it’s a shame. I’m building a copy of it as we speak. I like the fact the brass doesn’t stretch much, accuracy has been great. The gain in velocity and having something different made it worth the effort for me. Velocity gains varied between the three, the gain wasn’t eye popping but still better than the standard case. I like the 06 improved case whatever caliber a guy decides to try., I’d like to try the 30 caliber version someday.

yep
My 30-06 improved will run with a WM and no belt to deal with. Using Lapua brass, and holding strong….. brass life is undetermined, I haven’t seen a single sign of failure yet. Likely out last me.
CW

 

[Evlshnngns]

Back in 2006 in Shooting Times, they took a factory 22" barreled 30-06 Winchester model 70 fired it as a 30-06. then they rechambered it to the Ackley and then to a Gibbs. case capacity was 70.1 for the 06, 73.0 for the Ackley and 76.3 for the Gibbs. shooting 150, 165, 180 and 200 grain bullets on average the gain was 66fps with the Ackley and 104fps with the Gibbs...... seems like more work for not a lot of gain. BUT wildcat cartridges are kind of nice to have just for something different. I have a 7mm Gibbs and enjoy telling them guys shooting a 280 Ackley that they should have built a better, faster rifle like the 7mm Gibbs. ;D cliffe

I'd like to read that one.

 

[TaperPin]

In a small Alaskan village there’s a near record book standing polar bear mount in the school, so I had to ask the janitor about the story. Turns out he shot it with a 30-06 after it tried breaking in some houses, and a visiting hunter on a guided brown bear hunt volunteered to have it mounted. Now, if there was ever a difference in shooting hardware between a janitor and traveling hunter with a super magnum on a high $$$ hunt, this would showcase it.

I‘m not a 30-06 guy, but I own one specifically because of that brief meeting - just holding it I’m transformed into a polar bear hunter with a pocket full of round-nosed 220gr Core-loct ammo, if only for a brief moment.

 

[JSH]

Damn 10 years old.
I had a 30-06AI. Took more powder to get same results as a standard 06.
It did better with a 180-190 bullet, but still diminishing returns.
Mine was no 300WM by any means. I was told it could be when I bought it. Maybe with a longer barrel 28” or more. It what does t gain much then?
I suspect the early load data to get speeds they were after were pretty high on a pressure scale, much like the 280AI after it got SAMMI’d.

One can always load a magnum down, it taking a smaller case and making a magnum, o way around it pressure.

 

[Zero333]

yep
My 30-06 improved will run with a WM and no belt to deal with. Using Lapua brass, and holding strong….. brass life is undetermined, I haven’t seen a single sign of failure yet. Likely out last me.
CW

I'm not able to make the same velocity with 20 gr less of H2O capacity without increasing pressures significantly.

I know the 30'06 AI is a great round, but the 300winmag has no downfalls. I don't know why a belt is a big deal if you handload and bump shoulders only 2 thou.

Nevertheless both rounds are popular because both are awesome. Even the Standard 30-06' is an excellent round even after 117 years in existence.

Even the 6.5x55 sweed is a great cartridge celebrating 125 years as I type this.

 

[Mulligan]

I'm not able to make the same velocity with 20 gr less of H2O capacity without increasing pressures significantly.

I know the 30'06 AI is a great round, but the 300winmag has no downfalls. I don't know why a belt is a big deal if you handload and bump shoulders only 2 thou.

Nevertheless both rounds are popular because both are awesome. Even the Standard 30-06' is an excellent round even after 117 years in existence.

Even the 6.5x55 sweed is a great cartridge celebrating 125 years as I type this.

I have two WM’s, an ‘06AI and an, ‘06. All hunting rifles. The elk don’t appear to know the difference.
The ‘06AI is my meat gun, and it’s performance is just spectacular on game. I’ve actually got an 7-08AI that will pile up critters as well as the others if I’m hunting in close cover, at longer ranges, the 30’s are the ticket.
CW

 

[Bamban]

28 inch KBI, Serengeti chamber, 215 Bergers, LC 67 Match, Salmon River Solutions 5 port Titanium brake. With RL 17 and N560 I can get the same velocity. I have taken it to 1200 on eSilhouette steel on 9.7 up from 200 zero

I have 3 300WM, 2 7RM, a 280A1, most of the times I still grab the 06 to kill anything.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

RL26 alo gets the 06Ai running fast with heavy bullets

 

[AckleymanII]

2980 with a standard length barrel? You are running very high pressures.

A hunting partner in Az ran these velocities with 180g partitions, 26" barrel, 10 twist.

 

[wboggs]

I don't doubt the numbers but the pressure is very high.

 

[Mulligan]

I don't doubt the numbers but the pressure is very high.

How high do you think the pressure is?
CW

edit

I just ran it in quick load
According to the program.......62.0 RL22 generates just over 56K using the default brass, powder, and bullet parameters.
CW

 

[wboggs]

When you get .300WSM velocity out of a case with 16% less capacity you know the pressure is very high. I don't doubt their number. Nosler used a case capacity of 64.1 and a 24" barrel in your Nosler data. It was done under Nosler controlled conditions so I don't doubt it
I would challenge you to very carefully work up to the 62 gr RL 22 load using Nosler Brass and a 180 gr Nosler bullet, a WLR primer, loaded to 3.34" overall and check your own results. If you can do it successfully, I will be more than happy to change my mind that it is a safe load.
Regards
Bill

 

[Mulligan]

Sierra data

 

[3Sigma]

The 30-06 case benefits greatly from increased OAL, longer barrels, and slower powders when using any bullet over 180 grains.

If you move the OAL out to 3.45 or 3.6", one can easily gain 3 to 4 grains of capacity vs. The standard 3.34". Going AI adds the same., if not more. This brings the "combustion chamber" volume close to WSM standards, especially if the WSM is being used in a short action using magazines.

I redid my 30-06 a few years ago, but was limited to 3.45" mag length in my M70 (didn't want to deal with wyatts mag box mods for the action and stock). I had it throated to put the bullet base at the neck shoulder junction at mag length. I'm only using a 26" barrel as it needs to hunt well. I get 2850 fps from berger 190s, and no pressure issues. R22 wasn't good as I couldn't put enough in the case to make it worthwhile, nor have a long enough barrel to make use of the longer combustion curve. H4350 was my choice instead, though I would like to try H4831 SSC. I have no doubt a 30" barrel with another .2" in OAL using R22 would give me 2900 fps without AI case mods.

 

[AckleymanII]

30/06 AI

180g with 26", 10Tiwst, proper throat = 3000 fps with R#22, cci 250
200g with the same = 2800 fps

 

[Zero333]

View attachment 1490519

How high do you think the pressure is?
CW

edit

I just ran it in quick load
According to the program.......62.0 RL22 generates just over 56K using the default brass, powder, and bullet parameters.
CW

Old timers would use lever guns chambered for the 35 Rem and Winchester SilverTip bullets at 2,000 fps out the muzzle... open sights. Moose would drop where they stood. To me that's real hunting. We have such better everything now and most of the time moose don't drop in their tracks when shot.


Out of the same manual with the same 175/180 gr bullets, Nosler got 3,160 fos with the 300winmag.

If my brain is still working, that makes the 300winmag 175 fps faster that the 06' AI with 175/180 gr bullets ?

Maybe I got my math wrong.
Few years ago I got bought 200 ( 4 boxes of 50 ) of 240 SMK at half price and I went over 2,800 fps using RL-33 with no pressure signs in the summer. I settled on 2,770 fps with superb accuracy. 26" barrel.

Moose can't tell the difference between the standard 30'06' and the 300 winmag so who really cares what cartridge someone uses when hunting big game. I believe the bullet construction makes the difference on Moose and Elk and depending on the distance bullet construction is all that matters besides shot placement.

For long shots at the range, a good shooter with a better barrel and ammo using the standard 06' will have more impacts than if he was to use a 300winmag with mediocre barrel and average ammo.

I like both the 06' AI and the 300winmag. I shot both on the same day. Both hunting rifle weighing about the same. The AI was my long time Late friends (R.I.P.). I honestly could not tell the difference in recoil between the 2 rifles

 

[Zero333]

In a small Alaskan village there’s a near record book standing polar bear mount in the school, so I had to ask the janitor about the story. Turns out he shot it with a 30-06 after it tried breaking in some houses, and a visiting hunter on a guided brown bear hunt volunteered to have it mounted. Now, if there was ever a difference in shooting hardware between a janitor and traveling hunter with a super magnum on a high $$$ hunt, this would showcase it.

I‘m not a 30-06 guy, but I own one specifically because of that brief meeting - just holding it I’m transformed into a polar bear hunter with a pocket full of round-nosed 220gr Core-loct ammo, if only for a brief moment.

If I told you about the biggest Grizzly Bear ever killed you would not believe me who did it with what kind of rifle and what cartridge.

Bella Twin. A 63 year old small Cree woman from Slave Lake, Northern Alberta Canada, in 1953 she was hunting small game with her Single shot Cooey Ace 1 with broken stock taped to the receiver. Huge Grizzly started approaching her. Single shot in the temple from about 30 feet and it fell to the ground. She single loaded several more round and fired them in the same spot to make sure the Grizzly wasn't just stunned.
What Cartridge was she using ??? well, the Cooey Ace 1 was only chambered for the 22 LR !!!!!!

Read for yourself......

Bella Twin, the .22 Used to Take the 1953 World Record Grizzly, and More

On 10 May, 1953, Bella Twin was hunting small game with her partner, Dave Auger, along an oil exploration cutline south of Slave Lake. She was 63 years old.

www.ammoland.com

 

[Mulligan]

Old timers would use lever guns chambered for the 35 Rem and Winchester SilverTip bullets at 2,000 fps out the muzzle... open sights. Moose would drop where they stood. To me that's real hunting. We have such better everything now and most of the time moose don't drop in their tracks when shot.


Out of the same manual with the same 175/180 gr bullets, Nosler got 3,160 fos with the 300winmag.

If my brain is still working, that makes the 300winmag 175 fps faster that the 06' AI with 175/180 gr bullets ?

Maybe I got my math wrong.
Few years ago I got bought 200 ( 4 boxes of 50 ) of 240 SMK at half price and I went over 2,800 fps using RL-33 with no pressure signs in the summer. I settled on 2,770 fps with superb accuracy. 26" barrel.

Moose can't tell the difference between the standard 30'06' and the 300 winmag so who really cares what cartridge someone uses when hunting big game. I believe the bullet construction makes the difference on Moose and Elk and depending on the distance bullet construction is all that matters besides shot placement.

For long shots at the range, a good shooter with a better barrel and ammo using the standard 06' will have more impacts than if he was to use a 300winmag with mediocre barrel and average ammo.

I like both the 06' AI and the 300winmag. I shot both on the same day. Both hunting rifle weighing about the same. The AI was my long time Late friends (R.I.P.). I honestly could not tell the difference in recoil between the 2 rifles

you are correct, the WM will out run a 06AI.
With my rifles, they are very close...... loading for accuracy of course.
When my son was going to school in Fairbanks, I visited several times and spent plenty of time looking into hunting opportunities, the 243 was a popular all around cartridge for the local meat hunters at the time.

Yep, a 33 or 35 cal at reasonable distances will fill the freezer. And has for generations.
CW

 

[wboggs]

you are correct, the WM will out run a 06AI.
With my rifles, they are very close...... loading for accuracy of course.
When my son was going to school in Fairbanks, I visited several times and spent plenty of time looking into hunting opportunities, the 243 was a popular all around cartridge for the local meat hunters at the time.

Yep, a 33 or 35 cal at reasonable distances will fill the freezer. And has for generations.
CW

Agree with you. I just didn't want a lot of shooters to think they could just go out and get mag type velocities with a ackley 06. Pressures will be high and mistakes can load to accidents. Besides, the effect on game is not that different. To see this you need to move up to a .338 or larger.
My early years were spent with a peep sighted 06 using 220gr Rem CLHPs. My uncle took me on long pack trips in British Columbia and at 150yds or less it never failed.
Regards
Bill