Need info quickly on 6.5 options -help!

[scottl0000]

Hi guys and am I ever glad to have found this site!

I was hoping to get some information on 6.5 options; I'm headed to Africa on a plains game hunt and just found out there were serious problems with my current custom .260 - the prior gunsmith had not mounted the barrel correctly, stock has started a crack, etc. All bad timing as we leave in 3 - 4 months!

So I need to decide the next caliber very quickly for another buildup, and though I have a gun smith that will turn it around very fast and who is very good, I know that time window is very tight for ordering custom reamers, dies, etc. Any info much appreciated! Here are the design goals I've set.

24" Lilja #4 fluted barrel;
Action must be Rem SA but as we're buying a new action, any bolt face offered by Rem is an option;
Goal is to move a 140-ish grain bullet,Nosler Partition, Accubond or 130gr Barnes TSX - or something very similar - 2800fps out of that short 24" barrel
... and never plan on using the gun for any bullets shorter than at least the 125gr Nosler Partition or similarly sized bullets.

Here are some of the cases the gun smith and I are talking about:
6.5x47 / 6.5XC / .260 Rem / .260 Rem AI / 6.5x.284, but seat the bullets deep to fit into the short Rem action / possibly a wildcat based on a shortened Rem SA UM case...

NOTE: this smith is confident that using a Wyatt box, he can get 3.1" cartridge OAL to feed in the Rem short action.

Also, on the possible wild cat, our figures seem to show that a 6.5 based on a 7mm Rem short action ultra mag shorted in both OAL and body length around 150/1000ths might achieve the velocity goal of 2800+fps, good lenght for a short action, and still get us to my approximate,nice to have) goal of around 57to58 grains H20 case capacity, which is where I'm guessing we'll need to be... has anyone tried a shortened Rem SA UM case yet? I know David Tubb was working on the 7mm XK in 2002 for an appx production date of 2004, but it sounds like it never came to fruition...

Thanks for any info, we only have a 2-3 days to get the ball rolling if I am going to have time to work loads up for the completed rifle before we go to SA. Thanks gang!!!

Scott

 

[sunbuilder]

Scott

The 6.5 x 47 Lapua gets my vote.

No trouble fitting in rem short action with wyatt box.

I just finished a switch barrel rig on a Stillar Predator action. 6BR and 6x47 Lapua Imp.

Did the wyatt box plenty of room for Nosler 130gr Accubonds.

Scott S

 

[La_man]

Why don't you just make life easy and take a look at the 6.5 Remington Magnum. Mine will do very close to those numbers you are looking at with a 24 inch barrel. No need for all that work, custom reamers, dies etc.

 

[acloco]

Plain jane 6.5x55 will do exactly what you need. So will the 6.5x06.

 

[280man]

why not just stick with the 260 rem? you already have dies and brass

 

[olympian]

If you are dead set on these number, I would only consider the larger cases like the 6.5mm Remington Magnum, 6.5-300WSM, .264 Winchester Mag. By going with the larger case, you do not need to push the pressure up to get the velocity. The smaller cases are either not going to meet your velocity goal, or are going to have to be pushed in a 24" barrel. Hedge your bets and load down if you need to do so, plus you should not have any feeding problems with the standard rounds.

The 6.5x55 is a great round, but why push the envelope with a hunting rifle in a potentially hot environment.
My 2 cents

 

[scottl0000]

"Why don't you just make life easy and take a look at the 6.5 Remington Magnum. Mine will do very close to those numbers you are looking at with a 24 inch barrel. No need for all that work, custom reamers, dies etc. - La man"

Hi La man and thanks! I know that by the numbers that might get me close, but I'm thinking 2 things... First is that I think we still might be a bit shy on the target velocity - but I would definitely love to hear what velocity numbers you are getting with 123 to 140 grain loads... The other is just a personal hangup I guess: I used to have a belted mag, and though it's not a show-stopper, I just never could get used to the belt on there. Wasn't a big deal but it just seemed like an unnecessary evil. As I recall they headspace using the belt, but why not just headspace on the shoulder like beltless rounds? Anyway, not a show stopper, just a preference so I'd still love to hear what velocities you are getting. By the way, also, are there good sources for quality 6.5mm Rem Mag brass out there? Thanks La man!

 

[scottl0000]

"The 6.5 x 47 Lapua gets my vote.

No trouble fitting in rem short action with wyatt box.

I just finished a switch barrel rig on a Stillar Predator action. 6BR and 6x47 Lapua Imp.

Did the wyatt box plenty of room for Nosler 130gr Accubonds.

Scott S"

Tempting, my only worry was would I get enough velocity out of this compact of a case? You dont' happen to have any velocity numbers do you? Also, what barrel length are you shooting and any thoughts on how much might be lost using a 24" barrel,assuming of course you are using a longer one.)

Thanks!
Scott L.

 

[scottl0000]

Hi gang - just a quick reply on a couple of other responses...

The reason for not considering the 6.5x55, .264 Win Mag or 6.5x55 AI is the required action length,same reason I'm leery of going with the 6.5x.284. We need to be able to fit it into a short action, using 125 through 140 grain bullets if at all possible.

Also, the reason we are only keeping .260 Rem as a secondary fall back option is just that using the longer 140s with the short action repeater-style receiver requires that we seat the bullet too far into the case; we lose too much powder capacity.

So according to what I'm figuring to get to where I'd like to be in velocity. As best I can figure, my ball park estimate is that I need to be somewhere in the 53 to 57 grains or so of powder at the neck/shoulder junction, with a case short enough to end up with a 3.050 maximum cartridge OAL,so the bullets tips don't get deformed much in the slightly longer Wyatt box magazine and so they feed well in the Rem action.

All my figuring seems to show that the optimal solution would be using either the WSM case,416 Rigby-type case) shortened, or using a SAUM case,404 Jeffries-type case I believe) and then shortening it to around 1.920" to 2.000" overall case length with about a 0.325" long neck, similar to th 6BR. It seems like that should put us in about the right ball park. Admittedly I'm just winging these figures on paper as I have no WSM or SAUM cases to play with at the moment - does anyone happen to have a program that would calculate the resulting case capacity?

Incidentally, it seems like this would be about the equivelant velocity of the 6.5x.284, but without all the extra air space left over in the case when using the 6.5x.284 with 139gr to 142gr bullets with the bullet seated for use in a long action,with their bullet bases just at/just forward of the shoulder/neck junction to avoid possible doughnut pressures.) As such I would think the round I'm thinking of would be a good 1000k cartridge too. It would be very close to the 7mmXK cartridge D. Tubb describes at http://www.zediker.com/books/rifleshooter/rs_web_promos/rs_ammunition_spread.pdf
- except necked down to 6.5. The 1000-yard comment is just a side thought, but not what I'm building this gun for. In any case though this might be the "optimal" case for my usage goals, hunting and some paper use. The only thing stopping us from going this wild cat route is the fact that we leave in less than 4 months for Africa. It would be really risky on reamer and die turn around time, much less time to work up loads. So that's why I'm trying to figure out what the real velocity numbers might be using the 140-ish grain bullets with the cartridges above, when shot using a 24-inch barrel and seated for use in a short action. I am just not sure any of them quite fit the action size requirements and velocity goals when using a 140-ish grain bullet - even if we use the Wyatt box.

I really, really appreciate folks feedback above, this is great. Any velocity numbers folks are getting with barrels around 24", and other thoughts, would be very appreciated all.

 

[cliffe]

6.5-284 would fit your OAL, speed, great brass,alot of info on this site for starting accurate loads. fast and still the same boltface as the 260rem.get going on it and call the taxidermist! good luck on what ever you choose,but check out the 6.5-284 page. with my 6.5-284 starting load was recomended h4350,ccibr primers, 142smk, lapua brass. shot a .355 5 shot group after about 10 shots while breaking in the barrel. cliffe

 

[scottl0000]

Well, I have a confession. I slept on it several days and well, just couldn't get that little cartridge off my mind... which I guess just goes to show, you can always tell a Scotsman, but you can't tell him much. So I ordered reamers today and dies will be tomorrow or Monday.

If nothing else, it will make for an interesting experiment. Both the gun smith and Dave at Pacific Tool, after seeing the case dimension drawing, said they don't expect to have any problems getting it to feed properly with a little tuning since I stuck with the 35 degree shoulder. Time will tell for sure but it looks like it will all be coming together in under a month. Got very lucky and the smith had almost all he needed on hand or a short hop away. Will let you folks know how it turns out! Dave at Pacific is doing the throating to handle the 140 Partitions for hunting and the VLDs as well.

I'm calling it the 6.5 SLiC,Slick Litte Cartridge, bottom left in the attached file) - we'll see if the name is justified over the next several months. It has just been too long since I put together a wild cat and the itch needed scratching, just to have something a little different and to have a bit more "oomph" in a short action. I do know I'll be doing a lot of brass sorting and prep, but there are a lot worse things to be doing with one's time while passing time anxiously waiting for a hunting trip to come that you've been waiting a couple-3 years on.

Have a good one,
Scott

 

[CJ6]

Scott, Think twice about a Wildcat and going to Africa,if your ammo is LOST in transit,happens often) your done wasted trip. Also your not likley to find brass to,Make replacement rounds) let alone dies and such over there either. Some countries will not allow a rifle, ammo combo where the case headstamp does not match the barrel cal. stamp

 

[scottl0000]

Hi CJ6,
Very good thoughts. I'll check with the outfitter on the headstamp/barrel stamp question. Any of the calibers I currently have or might go to in 6.5 with the equipment I've got though I think will be very hard to come by in Africa. However just in case, we are in fact taking a .260 Rem along as well, and more importantly have confirmed our particular outfitter has a number of good rifles in camp to choose from in case clients rifles are lost. So that is a worst-case fall back plan. But you bring up a very good point - I think I'll bring my dies in my carry on if possible just in case... I'm betting WSM cases will be something I can get my hands on just in case there. Thanks for the good pointers as this is my first Africa trip!

 

[CJ6]

Scott,Make sure you check ALL countries that your plane will stop in or that you might have a CUSTOMS check in.It is somtimes better to ship your rifles,equipment) direct to your Outfitter.See what he has to say.INSURE IT WELL

 

[scottl0000]

Hi CJ6!

Checked with the outfitter and a very, very well travelled hunter I know with many Africa trips under his belt. Fortunately neither the outfitter nor this hunter has seen or heard of problems yet with folks bringing wild cat cartridges,into specifically South Africa) where they couldn't bring their ammo in because the case head didn't match the caliber on the barrel. Still, just to be sure, I'm having the gun smith only mark the barrel with his name and not the cartridge. Better safe than sorry!

The gun should be ready in about 2 weeks, just in time for the brass and all to be ready to load. The gun smith and I decided to partner in on a Ken Light automated case annealer, which the smith can use for his wild cats as well. Should be a lot of fun - time will tell.

 

[scottl0000]

Quick update:
My gun smith and I made the forming dies and did all the initial brass forming this past Memorial day weekend. The whole effort turned out to be very simple, albeit a bit labor-intensive.

We ended up turning out 4 dies to push the shoulder back the approximate .300 we were after, with each one coming in on the diameter about 1/4 of the way. So during the transition the case essentially had 2 shoulders. Note: The cases did not to my suprise require any annealing during that process. However by the time the,now very long) neck had been formed, the neck was very hard and after trimming, did require annealing before opening it up slightly with the K&M forming mandrel,pre-neck turning) die, which was followed by the K&M carbide reamer,to remove any inside neck doughnut effect, which was consistent but very slight) and now I'm in the process of turning all necks down to slightly over .012 thick.

So the process was very straight forward, in fact once we got the full set of form dies done, I didn't lose a single case out of about 300 when pushing the shoulders back.

I have done some preliminary measurements of the final,unfired and slightly undersized at the shoulder) new case. When loaded with the same bullet, both cartridges loaded to an overall length of 2.8 inches, and then compared to a neck-sized only standard .260 Rem loaded with a 140 gr. Partition,I didn't have any Bergers yet), it looks like we are right on the money. The loaded case holds about 8.5 grains more powder when both rounds are kept to 2.8 inches long,1 of my design requirements) and both are loaded with the same 140-gr bullet. Incidentally I got that measurement from loading both cases to the 2.8" overall length, but with no primer - then turning the cases upside down and filling them with a fine-grained W760 powder through the primer hole. Then I emptied the case back into the loading pan and measured each amount of powder from the 2 cases. 48.3 grains for the .260 and 56.6 for the new 6.5 round. Once fired it should,if I am estimating correctly) gain another .75 grains of capacity also.

Rifle should be ready this weekend - will let you know how it goes. So far, so good! I'll post a picture soon of the finished, loaded cases,.260 and the new 6.5) for comparison.

 

[ConnorExum]

Hi guys and am I ever glad to have found this site!

I was hoping to get some information on 6.5 options; I'm headed to Africa on a plains game hunt and just found out there were serious problems with my current custom .260 - the prior gunsmith had not mounted the barrel correctly, stock has started a crack, etc. All bad timing as we leave in 3 - 4 months!

So I need to decide the next caliber very quickly for another buildup, and though I have a gun smith that will turn it around very fast and who is very good, I know that time window is very tight for ordering custom reamers, dies, etc. Any info much appreciated! Here are the design goals I've set.

24" Lilja #4 fluted barrel;
Action must be Rem SA but as we're buying a new action, any bolt face offered by Rem is an option;
Goal is to move a 140-ish grain bullet,Nosler Partition, Accubond or 130gr Barnes TSX - or something very similar - 2800fps out of that short 24" barrel
... and never plan on using the gun for any bullets shorter than at least the 125gr Nosler Partition or similarly sized bullets.

Here are some of the cases the gun smith and I are talking about:
6.5x47 / 6.5XC / .260 Rem / .260 Rem AI / 6.5x.284, but seat the bullets deep to fit into the short Rem action / possibly a wildcat based on a shortened Rem SA UM case...

NOTE: this smith is confident that using a Wyatt box, he can get 3.1" cartridge OAL to feed in the Rem short action.

Also, on the possible wild cat, our figures seem to show that a 6.5 based on a 7mm Rem short action ultra mag shorted in both OAL and body length around 150/1000ths might achieve the velocity goal of 2800+fps, good lenght for a short action, and still get us to my approximate,nice to have) goal of around 57to58 grains H20 case capacity, which is where I'm guessing we'll need to be... has anyone tried a shortened Rem SA UM case yet? I know David Tubb was working on the 7mm XK in 2002 for an appx production date of 2004, but it sounds like it never came to fruition...

Thanks for any info, we only have a 2-3 days to get the ball rolling if I am going to have time to work loads up for the completed rifle before we go to SA. Thanks gang!!!

Scott

Why not just get a new barrel, and new stock and keep the rifle you have basically? Meaning same action, chamber specs and so on? That way you have all the data you need and can easily turn your old data over to the new rifle for without worrying about total load development basically just fine tuning the old loads to the new barrel if you're lucky.

 

[FroggyOne2]

How about getting a new bolt body from Kiff,accually from Kevin Wyatt) for a magnum, chamber it for the 6.5 WSSM?

 

[gunrx]

Scott,
Your smith gave you an OAL of 3.100" using the Wyatt box. The inside length of those boxes is aprox. 3.000".