Necking down (wildcat)

[Nobody]

This may be a silly question, but...

When making a barely-wildcat and just necking down 1/2mm, and since the new cartridge is almost to the chamber spec, and it’s gone through a FL die (as if it were fired), and since no fire forming is required, is it necessary to fire every piece of brass once before I start playing with load workups?

Do you think the data obtained will be tainted by quality, first-fire brass? Do you think this will effect repeatability? In other words does it matter, and if so how much?

This is not for BR for bug holes. This rifle has a standard chamber and throat for steel matches.

I don’t have a spent barrel for this caliber, and would rather not send 300 shots down it to obtain brass. That said, you do what you’ve got to do.

 

[DickE]

Do 10 and 10. 10 right out of the FL die. Then take those and reload your normal way and refire. 2 five shot groups. This will give you your answer. Then go with that, I doubt you will find a great deal of difference.

 

[Shynloco]

.....
When making a barely-wildcat and just necking down 1/2mm, and since the new cartridge is almost to the chamber spec, and it’s gone through a FL die (as if it were fired), and since no fire forming is required, is it necessary to fire every piece of brass once before I start playing with load workups?

Do you think the data obtained will be tainted by quality, first-fire brass? Do you think this will effect repeatability? In other words does it matter, and if so how much? -

IMHO, if its UNFIRED NEW BRASS and you do not fireform it, in my experiences the data IS TAINTED for bug hole shooting. I've found new brass has to go through the expansion/contraction process one or two times to be consistent for score. But since you aren't using this brass for BR score, it's close enough that you'll hit the plate if it's not 600 - 1K out.

Alex

 

[Richard Coody]

i don't start load development with any new brass much less reformed brass until it is fireformed. Sometimes it works but it is Extremely frustrating to go through a whole batch of new brass and think you have the load dialed then start using your fired brass and see the load come apart. Depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[Prose]

With a 260 rem made from 308 brass, my node moved .3 grains from virgin neckdown to fireformed, but the accuracy was equal. Just had to tweak the load second time around.

 

[chuckshooter]

I have a load for fire forming and then a load for formed brass. I hate to use the word never, so I will say very seldom are they the same load.

 

[Nobody]

Clearly this is not the answer I was hoping for..., but the one I had figured.

I wish I had a on old barrel to run these through rather than my shiny new one. I suppose this one ain't going to last the season if I'm hitting the first match @ 80% or worse. Then again, I'll have this one for fire forming when it shoots out, and the next will live longer.

At lease I can use light pills and the start charge, which should save some barrel, if I'm shooting them just to shoot them...? Any reason not to do this and run at higher pressure?

 

[chuckshooter]

Clearly this is not the answer I was hoping for..., but the one I had figured.

I wish I had a on old barrel to run these through rather than my shiny new one. I suppose this one ain't going to last the season if I'm hitting the first match @ 80% or worse. Then again, I'll have this one for fire forming when it shoots out, and the next will live longer.

At lease I can use light pills and the start charge, which should save some barrel, if I'm shooting them just to shoot them...? Any reason not to do this and run at higher pressure?

I would not throw in the towel yet, I have gotten some really good groups out of forming loads, I am just saying once formed, rework the load data. I did not see what caliber/ cartridge you are talking about?

 

[Nobody]

I get that. It's a 6x47L. This is a comp rifle. Good groups are nice like bad groups aren't, but if they aren't consistently repeatable in a match they're of no use to me. .3 gr difference sounds about right to me. Not what I wanted to hear, but, again, what I expected.

I don't shoot BR, but I find the people who do know a lot more than I do, and are always worth listening to. A lot of what they do doesn't help me, but enough does that it pays to listen. I sort of ala carte their methods to apply to my shooting.

I'm not the guy who can blow them down range without at least aiming at a target and still be happy, but I'm also not going to measure, record, and do the full load workup if it isn't usable for the long haul. I was just seeing if there was a short circuit on a cartridge that is barely a wildcat, will shoot a pill out of the press, and isn't a true fire formed cartridge. There usually isn't a shortcut to precision, but I had to ask.

 

[Richard Coody]

Clearly this is not the answer I was hoping for..., but the one I had figured.

I wish I had a on old barrel to run these through rather than my shiny new one. I suppose this one ain't going to last the season if I'm hitting the first match @ 80% or worse. Then again, I'll have this one for fire forming when it shoots out, and the next will live longer.

At lease I can use light pills and the start charge, which should save some barrel, if I'm shooting them just to shoot them...? Any reason not to do this and run at higher pressure?

fireforming loads can be very accurate. many shoot them in competition. just realize any fireforming load you develop will probably change after fireforming. Case volume and neck tension are the big changes for me.

 

[Nobody]

I used a FL Forster die to neck them (only crushed two out of 300 and the rest are flawless), will be using the same die to resize, and the breach has a standard throat. There appears to be ample neck tension (middlin') without using a bushing die, but of course I won't know till I shoot it. It was sort of this basic/standard set up that made me think I might not need to fire-form (when I think of fire forming I think of cream of wheat) specifically before load development to get the precision I can expect. Or rather, they might not behave all that differently from once (or more) fired. I hope to not have to buy many more blue boxes this year. I was hoping this barrel would last the whole season, but I'm thinking now that it won't, and I may as well order another before we get going. It's SL, so I can change on the fly. They're several hundred more $$$ per barrel, but its worth it to me for no bench fees or waiting on the rifle to be re-barreled. If I get sick of this caliber and want to chase a new shiny it's as simple as a two minute barrel swap. Pretty kewl.

I'm starting from scratch with a new rifle in a new to me caliber. Don't get me wrong; I enjoy load development. I've messed with sporter rifles for years to get them to shoot at their best. I like a challenge. It's a fun and rewarding part of shooting for me. What I don't enjoy is spending a lot of a precision barrel life on it. I consider a barrel to be a consumable, but I'm a waste not want not kind of guy, and throwing them down the pipe for no reason other than to uniform them seems a bit wasteful to me. If I could knock out load development as I fire form them I'd be happier, but it's not like I'm going to be unhappy doing it in more steps.

 

[Prose]

You may well still be in your node if you do a full workup. The .264-243 is a lot smaller move compared to .308-264. If you load initially at the top of the node, the fire formed load may be toward the bottom. Best you can do is try.

 

[Nobody]

I got to shoot them anyway...

 

[Fast14riot]

I do my seating depth test while fire forming. Helps save some barrel life. But, thinking about my 20p, I just form and shoot. Shoots well enough for the steel matches I have shot.

 

[ShootDots]

I do some of my fire forming at matches. They can still shoot pretty decently. Last Sunday 300 yard match I was fire forming converted 308 Palma brass in my 260AI and it worked pretty well. I expect it to improve substantially next time around.

Joe



View attachment 1029602

Hey Joe! Not bad for turning reformed .308 Palma brass to .260 brass into A.I. brass! I believe you have a really good fireforming load. Once you get them all fireformed and a load developed, a 600 with 50+ "Xs" is on the horizon!

 

[ShootDots]

Yeah, but guess what? Fredrik was fire forming his 6BRAckley and scored 599-46X. Johnny, of course, won with 600-51X, but he had good brass. So, I have to step up my game to just hang with the big dogs.

Yeah BUT there is not hardly any difference in accuracy from Fireforming the Bra and the load intended for competition, from my understanding. You're still in good shape Joe..

 

[Brians356]

For your purpose (shooting steel) I certainly would not bother fireforming 300 pieces. But suppose you had to fireform because of some wildcat process. There's still no reason to send 300 bullets, and appropriately-large powder charges, down a bore. Simply fireform "bulletless", using pistol primers and a fast powder like Bullseye, about 12-15% of case capacity. Don't bother using filler or wad, just lightly lube the outside of the cases with Rem Oil or the like, and carefully chamber each charged case with rifle pointed skyward, and fire the powder toward the nearest cloud. This works great for Ackley Improving, so it certainly will work for what little case expansion you require. The relatively small small amount of powder, under negligible pressure, should not erode your throat measurably (if it does, let me know.)
-

 

[fredo]

Since you're prolly shooting PRS type matches, I can see why you wanna have 300pcs. brass on hand. With the amount of cases you'll likely lose at each match, its always good to have 'extra' ready to go...

When I necked down my 6x47L, I did shoot a slightly lighter charge than with finished (1x) fired brass. It's no biggie, really, you'll just have to get your dope dialed in for the slightly slower MV while 'forming' that new brass to your chamber. My rifle shot plenty good with new, necked down brass to hit any plate at a match. Heck, I even loaded some 95VLDs in new brass, so I could save the 105Hybrids for full house loads...

As others have mentioned above, its usually not a bad idea to start any new brass with a slightly lower charge than you'd expect to run at full power. Most brass stretch occurs on brass during that initial firing, so no need to pour the coals to 'em while they're doing so. Wait til ya get a good minimal re-size on 'em, then step on the gas...

Once you've got your initial batch fired once, then you can sacrifice a few pieces to do final load workup on 'formed' cases. Should only take 10 pcs, tops. Once you've got your final load nailed down, belly up to the bench & load the remaining 290 pcs. and go have fun!!!