Neck turned Dasher fire-forming question

[ProneKing]

I'm relatively new to the Dasher. My question is, if you do a neck-turn Dasher, how do you fireform your brass? My reamer has a .268" neck, so I don't think a neck turn to false shoulder method would work as it should be just a skim cut. Do I hydroform, then neck turn? Do I fireform in a different barrel with a no-neck turn chamber, then neck turn? How do you guys do it?

Thanks,
ProneKing

 

[ShootDots]

I just got in this "Dasher Thing" myself Prone... If you do the "false shoulder method", I believe you will be doing yourself a favor. I have a Whidden F/L / Comp Seater die set. They were gracious enough to hone it out to .266 for me. I use a mandrel first to "iron out" any imperfections in the virgin brass. Then I turn off just enough to get all the high spots off>>>usually right at 1K.. After trimming and chamfering I run them into a 6.5 mandrel and then "re-size them" in my Dasher F/L die>>>>now here is the "trick" >> I had a 38 Special / .357 die that has that .128"ring" for doing either the .38 or the .357 (it fits between the die and the press)... I don't load for them anymore so my 'smith and I came to the conclusion (after using fireformed brass and the reamer dimensions) that I need a .96-.97 ring to get the shoulder in the correct place with enough "crush" to hold that case in place under stress. It works perfectly. I fireformed 100 pieces of brass that way, shooting a 105Berger at both 600 and 1000 yards. The rifle shot beyond my expectations at both yardages... Next time I need to fireform brass I will shoot a complete match at either 300 or 600 yards and I believe I will do pretty well...

Now as I stated, I just got into the Dasher, so my experience is very limited indeed! I am just relaying to you what worked for me..

 

[ProneKing]

I guess I hadn't thought of turning the neck down further than the Dasher shoulder would be first. How far down do you turn it? All the way to the BR shoulder? Doesn't that weaken the new Dasher shoulder? Sorry for the newby questions.

ProneKing

 

[ShootDots]

Hey Prone.... I turn them ALL the way down on the BR necks>>>>even to a "smidgen" into the shoulder. It does not weaken anything... The incredibly small amount in inconsequential... If there were any flaws, "factory" or "handloader bred" it would be forced when the shoulder is blown forward and out to 40degrees.. I have been a "long time fan" of what arguably are considered "wildcats".. I have had an .358STA, .257Roberts A.I., 6mmRem A.I., .260 A.I.; 6-6.5 x 47 Lapua and now the 6mmDasher>>and soon to have a 7mm Walker... I believe these are all "better designs" than a or the "standard" round they are derived from. I neck turn them ALL, some after reducing the neck diameter... In either event, you will not have ANY problems from turning before you fireform, for that matter probably not afterward either>>> BUT I like to use a mandrel on VIRGIN brass to accentuate any flaws and getting rid of them on the neck turn job..

 

[Phil]

Ben,

I`m pretty sure I`m following you here,but just for the heck of it,could you post some pictures of exactly what you are doing to form your brass with the spacer?

Phil.

 

[Phil]

I`m picturing this as similar to the guy`s who use a spacer to load BRX ammo with BR dies.....

 

[ShootDots]

Phil I would but I don't have a digital camera and my cell phone is a flip phone... I have no way of posting pics... I will elaborate... My .38Special / .357 die set had a .128 "ring" that you use to "make up the difference" between a .38 and a .357. That "ring" is designed to slide over the threads of a die.. That ring slides over the die and makes the die, in this case, my Dasher F/L die, NOT size all the way down.. So, I run a 6mmBR case into the 6.5 mandrel to neck it up. Then I take that ring (now .97") and put it over the threads of my Dasher die (it sits on top of my press between the press and the die) and neck DOWN the BR case back to 6mm >>>> BUT because the ring will not allow the sizing all the way down, it "creates" a "False Shoulder">>> .97 was chosen so as to make a tight fit of the case in the chamber to "hold" the case in place as it blows forward and out to 40degrees.. I hope this clarifies the image I built in your "mind's eye" as it were... If it is still unclear, PM me with your ph# and I will call.. Yes Phil, this is nothing more than an excellent spacer..

 

[Phil]

Ben,

This is exactly what I thought you were doing,i was hoping you could post a couple pictures to help out others.

BRX guy`s do the same thing with BR dies...I believe they go .098-.100 shim thickness.

I neck up then use a 6mmbr die to set my false shoulder,same result-different road,you have a good idea there though....

Phil.

 

[ShootDots]

Phil, sooner or later I have to get into the 21st century... I got to get a camera, a better phone etc.. However, in this tech arena, I have a GREAT aversion to all this technology! Weird YES!! But like Popeye used to say: "I ams what I ams and that's all that I ams"...LOL!!!

 

[dmoran]

I neck-turn to the shoulder before forming, which eliminates the "donut effect" by blowing the turner's stopping point into the shoulder, by doing it before fire-forming.

I create a "false-shoulder" to head-space off (like to have about 0.030" of crush). I use to use a .257-expander to create the false-shoulder, but have switched to a .264-expander and like the results better. It holds firmer and blows longer necks and more consistent cases - IMO&E.

I tune the fire-forming load to get "blow lengths" near 1.546-OAL (or longer). I do not like blown short cases, primarily do to carbon fouling issues, and find short blown cases to be "sluggish" to future brass flow.

I also use brake cleaner on a towel to wipe off all lubes from the cases, and always use a very clean and dry chamber as well.

Donovan Moran

 

[dkhunt14]

Very good post Donovan. Pretty much explains it all and great pictures.

 

[johara1]

Donovan, nice pics. and to the point and no BS. what he said is fact, the only addition would be a soft primer and no ejector. The best part is you will be doing it right and they will last forever as soon as you learn it isn't a race....... jim

 

[Laurie]

Very useful information Donovan and great pics. This is a task I've got coming soon, and like ProneKing was mulling over how I'd go about it.

The most commonly used method amongst my PPC and Dasher shooting friends here is a partial fireform using a fast-burning pistol powder such as Alliant Bullseye with the case-neck plugged with candle wax. (Melt some candles down into a shallow tray with a spoonful of olive oil or similar added to make a softer mix. When it sets, press the upside-down tray onto charged cases to seal their necks.)

This does 90 odd percent of the fireforming job and as no bullet is involved, neck-turning is done after the fireform. The unturned 6BR case may require a greater than usual degree of sizing, and no expansion of course, so that it fits the tight neck chamber even without a bullet.

Incidentally wax plug fireforming must be done under range safety conditions as the plug comes out at a pretty impressive velocity (I chrongraphed a 6PPC's wax plug at over 4,000 fps!) and will cause serious injury or death to anybody in the way or do damage to buildings / fixtures. The barrel has to be cleaned regularly during the process to stop the burned powder + wax build-up getting out of hand.

This method is slower and harder work than your way, but is liked by the PPC shooters as they only need a relatively small number of cases and it's a no-bullet / no-bore-wear method. The final fireforming is done during load work-up, so the rifle or barrel is match-ready with hardly any rounds through it.

I was going to use this method, but yours looks a lot more appealing. The ability to turn the whole unformed 6BR case-neck down into the shoulder without causing subsequent problems after fireforming is the key issue. I hadn't realised that.

 

[alf]

No wax plug is needed.

This is a sequence with 700X and a partial square of butt wipe:

 

[johara1]

I kind of like the old fire form method, blow lengths are running 1.552 -1.554. Very uniform and really easy out the basement door into the bank and i'm breaking in barrels at the same time........ jim

 

[AKShooter]

The OP has a .268 neck. While I do agree witht the methods described above, What would be the effect of a smaller neck? I am finishing up a .264 necked Dasher.

I was going to simply neck turn back until the brass chambers...fireform from there

 

[ridgeway]

I run a .264" neck and prep my brass by turning my neck thickness I'm going to use in one shot and stop the turned false shoulder where it contacts the chamber. Load up some Sierra 107s with some old varget and out comes a nice formed dasher case. Shoot 5 and clean for consistent blow out length.

 

[MarkS]

ProneKing,

I don't have a Dasher, but I had a 6BRBS close to a Dasher, and have many 6BRX's. I have done about all the fireforming methods. I like FF with a tight held bullet Jammed 0.030". They all work. False shoulder is a pain to load. I have Wilson hand dies. As far as neck turning. I have done my last barrel. I have two left, they are my last. I like a 0.271 no turn neck. But, If you have one. I turn the necks on the BR case before FF, down just past where the new shoulder will be, then FF

Mark Schronce